Fionn Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 Tom w said ""GAMEY" or not I play to win, " Ah and you've just removed yourself from my list of possible PBEM opponents. I play to have FUN. Playing to win just ends up robbing you of any fun you might have had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn: I play to have FUN. Playing to win just ends up robbing you of any fun you might have had.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Have to agree with Fionn here, while winning is more fun than losing, there is more to it in a game. At some level I can get quite some satisfaction out of being ground to pieces by an opponent, if it is fairly and squarely. Mostly b/c it reminds me of how my opponents feel when the terrible German meatgrinder works on them... As for 'take those VLs by 2pm or else the war is lost' - those orders were quite frequent, I believe. In complex operations, sometimes the start-line for a batallion first had to be taken, and then that second unit would pass through the first one to attack the ultimate objective. Now if you don't manage to clear their start-line by the time they are supposed to jump off, you may just have thrown the attack of a whole division into complete chaos. Ooops, your GOC is going to love you. In some cases terrible desasters happened because of failures to do this and to communicate adequately. E.g. the almost total annihilation of the Black Watch of Canada during the attack on Verrieres Ridge, I believe it was. So it won't lose you the war, but it will kill a lot of your comrades because the generals are stupid. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: At some level I can get quite some satisfaction out of being ground to pieces by an opponent, if it is fairly and squarely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OK, ... but what exactly is the definition of "fairly and squarely"? In V1.03 the crews cannot see more than (if I understand this correctly) 25 - 50 m and they are, and always were, "brittle" in combat with an ! to prove it. In the case in question here one player left a Victory flag or location undefended, the other player had reserves left, and late in the game attacked that flag. How can these winning tactics be called "gamey"? The gamey use of crews as targets of opportuntity by adavancing armor is questionable if you are also advancing armor in the hopes that your crews are being used as "bait" so your armor will not be targeted. I guess that's gamey but it is happeing with alarming frequency I understand. Does the AI do it to me. NO it does not. But I think the real problem here lies with the fact that the tac AI for some armour will target advancing crews and overlook legitimate threats like opposing armour. BUT if the crew looks like an Antitank team with an antitank weapon, well then if the tank is buttoned and it cannot tell the difference then rushing that crew and hoping they are mistaken for antitank teams by the Tac AI may be a "questionable" tactic, but it seems to be somewhat effective even if it is labeled gamey? - tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike the bike Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 I agree that victory objectives are a problem - IMO they are only relevant if they are tactically or strategically important - ie if holding them actually achieves something such as cutting your enemy's supply. Bits of ground in the middle of the battle field are rarely important IMO. If you destroy all the enemy then you can occupy the ground at yuor leisure - but in a game it's a bit tough if you wipe him out on the lastturn, but he continues to get VP's for "objectives" that you can stroll into if the game went one for minute! Hard luck? Perhaps, but it is certainly an area that can lessen enjoyment of thegame from a realism aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 oops double post [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 08-08-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captitalistdoginchina Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 Fionn, I think thats a little tooooooo harsh to remove a possible PBEM opponent from your list just because he plays to win. Ask any Ladder player if they are playing to win? You can guess the answer. I always play to win as i am sure you do, of course we still have fun even if we lose - in fact i like it when the odds are against me and it is a real fight to gain a minor or tactical victory. But please don't penalise those who play to win. I always admire your posts Fionn, please tell me you were only Jesting. I think the issue of gameyness is quite a debateable subject. So keep calm fellas, this thread is interesting and lets not let it get out of hand. Victory Flags. I believe that Victory flags are an important aspect of CM - without them some players could take their entire force and attack down one map edge against a thinly spread defence line, with victory flags players must think about how to spread their attacks into a strategic force to achieve objectives. Massing one big force and moving them together in force across the map destroying everything in its path is no fun. Victory flags must be there to enable planning and thoughtful, effective use of your available rescources both in defence and attack of these locations. If you can take advantage of an opponents neglect then it is not gamey. I would only add that if one player deliberately hid a few beaten up units for maybe 10 turns waiting to rush the vacant flag location in the last 2 turns it could be a more sensitive issue, but it must still be an oversight for any player to leave the location undefended. Not an easy issue to resolve me thinks. CDIC ------------------ "Death solves all problems - no man no problem" J.V.Stalin, 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 I've always agreed with Napoleon: Destroy your opponents army, and his country is then free for the taking. Works the same in CM. Concentrate your attacks on where you think your opponent has the majority of his forces, and when his troops have all fled the field, take the VP objectives at your leisure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: OK, ... but what exactly is the definition of "fairly and squarely"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> As I see fit. In the little universe that is my mind, I am the final judge and jury on that matter. I do also realise that it is just me, so I treat this with a large degree of discretion, and refuse to put rules down. As for an alarming increase in the use of crews as recon units that somebody mentioned, I have yet to see anybody do that. I prefer to play people I know from the board and that have struck me as sensible here, so I guess selection of PBEM opponents has to do with that. If I get along well with somebody, and we enjoy playing each other we just have rematches. And before somebody gets flustered, no that does not mean that I exclude new players totally, but there is a rather small window for them in my PBEM schedule, since days are limited to 24 hours and weeks to seven days. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captitalistdoginchina Posted August 8, 2000 Share Posted August 8, 2000 I prefer to play people I know from the board and that have struck me as sensible here, so I guess selection of PBEM opponents has to do with that. Well said Andreas, so, does that mean i get to avenge my one and only defeat in CM? Yes you are still Da Man. I hope for a rematch.....but my CM is on a slow boat to China!!! Anyone for game of VoT or CE ???? Sigh........ CDIC ------------------ "Death solves all problems - no man no problem" J.V.Stalin, 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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