Do Tank Riders Help The Tank Spot Better?

[Vanir]

I did a search on this. Nothing. So... does a tank (or a Puma or whatever) moving around spot enemies better with riders on it (squad, MG, sniper, whatever)? I know they did in Steel Panthers. But this isn't Steel Panthers.

I'm trying to figure out if putting a sniper or light MG on my recon units will improve their survivability in CM. Old Steel Panthers players will remember doing this.

[Formerly Babra]

Punt. I'd like to know the answer to that too.

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Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me.

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir:

I did a search on this. Nothing. So... does a tank (or a Puma or whatever) moving around spot enemies better with riders on it (squad, MG, sniper, whatever)? I know they did in Steel Panthers. But this isn't Steel Panthers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you were riding on a bouncy tank at 30 mph holding on for dear life, how much better at spotting enemy soldiers than the tank commander who has his head stuck out of the turret with a pair of binoculars?

Henri

[David Aitken]

I haven't heard anything about this before - either in the manual or on the forums - so I doubt it's in the game. I think a tank with men on the back is just giving them transport - it doesn't otherwise benefit from their presence.

David

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There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT

[Strider]

This, or something similar, was discussed a long time ago. May have been preBeta-demo. At the time, the answer was no. Maybe someone with a better memory can remember the specifics

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

If you were riding on a bouncy tank at 30 mph holding on for dear life, how much better at spotting enemy soldiers than the tank commander who has his head stuck out of the turret with a pair of binoculars?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But what if the vehicle is stationary, or moving slowly..? I would imagine passengers would convey spotting data to the commander, although, as we know, passengers can't fire, so perhaps they can't spot either..?

[Strider]

Found it Do a search on the thread "Too Easy"...

Sometimes it sure ain't "too easy" finding a thread you know exists

[Edit]

I had to use "Target Fixation" to find the thread...because I remembered that's when the topic came up.

[This message has been edited by Strider (edited 08-27-2000).]

[Pham911]

I'd read that tanks were mostly deaf when buttoned. If the tank is unbuttoned and the TC is looking around, then it's like Henri said, the TC stands a much better chance of spotting enemy forces with his binoculars than the soldiers hitching a ride. If the tank is buttoned, then passengers could probably see better than the tank crew, but they couldn't relay information easily... I mean, how easy is it to make a noise that's louder than the tanks engines as heard from inside?

"Hey, Hans, I've got a better idea. *You* knock on the friggin hatch and point out that Sherman over there, and I'll haul my ass to those trees for a bit."

I know that a rear mounted phone was introduced, at least with american tanks, but from what I could tell it was mounted so that a soldier on foot could use it to communicate with the crew, not a soldier on top. Not sure exactly when it was made avaliable, but it was after D-Day, I think.

[JWorthing]

If you see a picture of a squad sitting on a tank it does not look too spacious. So, I'd imagine it would be hard to try and spot anything. As said earlier, the soldiers are holding on for dear life. Even if the tank is stationary, there is not much space to move around on and be a look out.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Henri:

If you were riding on a bouncy tank at 30 mph holding on for dear life, how much better at spotting enemy soldiers than the tank commander who has his head stuck out of the turret with a pair of binoculars?

Henri<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know, Henri, I've never ridden on the back of a tank. Have you? On the other hand, I *have* read that a tank is the smoothest cross-country ride you can find, which makes sense to me.

Also, there would seem to me to be a real advantage to having 10+ pairs of eyes looking all around to only one or possibly three (including the gunner and loader) scanning a small part of the azimuth. I'd say that a tank (or other vehicle) with riders should have an advantage in spotting over a vehicle without any, but not a huge advantage.

Michael

[Pham911]

The smoothest cross country ride you can find makes no sense to me at all. First, saying it's the smoothest ride you can find isn't the same as saying it's a smooth ride. The smoothest ride you can find over glacial fissures isn't exactly the same as a smooth ride over freshly paved, seemless asphault.

Second, a Sherman II weighs 33 tons, and can go 24mph(god bless the in-game database). Even at half that speed, you're talking about 33 tons of metal and crap trying to manuver over every lump and depression in non-paved land. Now sit someone on top of it without a seat or harness. To illustrate my point, the next time your boss is talking to you start leaning forward and back and side to side violently. See? It's really hard to pay attention when you're trying desperatly to avoid throwing yourself out of your chair. Same goes with tanks.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pham911:

the next time your boss is talking to you start leaning forward and back and side to side violently. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll try this tomorrow and let you know how it goes

OK, let me ask this a different way. Instead of asking if the infantry on the tank make the tank spot better lets ask if infantry riding on a tank retain the same ability to spot on their own as they do when not on a tank. It says in the manual that infantry generally spot better than vehicles, but that all units spot worse when moving.

The general purpose of recon in CM is to spring any ambushes so your following expensive units don't get caught in one. So, if your Lynx suddenly brews up it's real nice to know where the unit that brewed it up is. Logicly, whether or not the vehicle survives the ambush, having some guys on back should increase the chance of spotting the firing enemy unit. Also, you don't have to put a whole squad on your tank. I would use just a sniper or LMG which is 1 or 2 guys. Also, if the vehicle is moving with the Move command that's walking speed. No need to hang on for dear life.

So, basicly they question is: Do units riding on vehicles retain the ability to spot independently or are they incapable of spotting in CM???

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 08-28-2000).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pham911:

The smoothest cross country ride you can find makes no sense to me at all. First, saying it's the smoothest ride you can find isn't the same as saying it's a smooth ride. The smoothest ride you can find over glacial fissures isn't exactly the same as a smooth ride over freshly paved, seemless asphault.

Second, a Sherman II weighs 33 tons, and can go 24mph(god bless the in-game database). Even at half that speed, you're talking about 33 tons of metal and crap trying to manuver over every lump and depression in non-paved land. Now sit someone on top of it without a seat or harness. To illustrate my point, the next time your boss is talking to you start leaning forward and back and side to side violently. See? It's really hard to pay attention when you're trying desperatly to avoid throwing yourself out of your chair. Same goes with tanks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stop, Pham, and think about it again.

First, you don't drive a tank over *very* rough terrain at all if there's any way you can avoid it. Why? Because you are very apt to throw a track.

For the same reason, you don't go very fast off the road at any time if there is a likelihood of coming on something suddenly that could break your track. So you're not going to be pounding along hell for leather at all, unless you're in a Hollywood movie.

Secondly, if you are anywhere near where you think the enemy might be, you are going to be going slowly enough to stop and bring him under fire as soon as you spot him.

Thirdly, you demonstrate a basic ignorance of the physics of a tank in motion. All that weight means a lot of inertia, which tends to dampen out rocking motion of the kind you describe, not increase it. Also, have you ever looked at the suspension of a tank? Did you notice that it has *lots* of road wheels? And did you ever watch them while they rode over irregularities *one by one* while the other wheels remained on level ground, leaving the tank nice and steady? If you haven't, then let me clue you in, that's exactly what they do. The only thing that will cause a tank (or similar large tracked vehicle) to tilt and rock are irregularities large enough to effect a majority of the road wheels on at least one side. And irregularities that big tend to be gentle by their nature. If they aren't (like stone walls or anti-tank ditches for instance), you try real hard not to drive over them.

Finally, troops *did* in fact ride on tanks, and the case at least of the Soviet army, they were put there not only to help spot the enemy but to protect the tanks from infantry close assaults. So the ride was smooth enough to allow then to employ at least SMGs.

Michael