Spur of the Moment Complaining.

[Dittohead]

Yea I noticed the shermans of death as well. It seems they gain a very favorable modifier when moving. I know the gyro's were discussed in depth before, but it seems that the shermans are deadly accurate when backing up more so than moving forward. Must be because of the speed as opposed to going forward. So the Tactical AI likes to back up shermans to engage the enemy panzers. I have suffered numerous hits from backing up shermans. No matter what terrain their in. Methinks the accuracy bonus is to high for gyros. Since they were the exception not the rule.

Tony

[Guest Big Time Software]

MG, what you weighed would be like what a squad member would carry. As Charles said, CM allows these guys to run. What we have been talking about is an HMG unit, and the 50lbs is *just* ammo. Let me repeat that because you seem to have missed this before, just ammo.

You seem to be confusing the role of the MG42 as an LMG with HMG. The roles were very different, both tactically and organizationally. You can not intermingle the two because they are inherently different (even if the weapon is exactly the same).

As for the quickness of detatching the MG42 from its tripod... what is your point? How good is an MG42 without ammo (50 rounds is emergency quantity at best)? Yes, it could be used as a club I suppose, but not much more than that. So I am not sure what your point is unless you are thinking that the MG42 should be simulated as a hand to hand weapon.

Your experiences count for something, but not if taken out of context. This is what you are doing. The role of the HMG was for fixed defense or supporting the intial attack. It was not meant to dart around the field in support of squads. The reason for that was its poor mobility. Use some simple logic if ntohing else. If a HMG team (which is 6 men for the HMG42) could keep up with the infantry then wouldn't their doctrine be different than picking ONE spot and firing from there? Think about it... reality dictates the doctrine, so therefore the doctrine itself largely explains the reality.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

Tony,

I disagree. I regularly knock out 3-5 Shermans with one Panther in VoT. If the gyro stabilizer factor, or any other factor, were slanted in favor of the Shermans as much as you say then I wouldn't be able to do this.

No, the reasons for the demise of so many StuGs in CE has much to do with either mishandling by the German player or a serious underestimating of what a Sherman really could do. The Sherman is, by and large, thought of as a useless hunk of junk, while pretty much any fully armored German AFV is a master of carnage The truth is that the Sherman, when matched against most German vehicles at close range (VERY IMPORTANT FACTOR!!) is equal if not superior. The trick for the Germans was scoring hits at long ranges. In CE the average engagement range is less than 500m, and that puts the advantage firmly on the Sherman's side.

Creighton Abrams, manning a Sherman, managed to knock out 40 German tanks in 6 months, including several Panthers. While this is, of course, an exceptional score for *any* tanker of *any* nation, it proves one thing very well. And that is the Sherman could be an effective tank when used correctly. In CE the crews of both side's tanks are equal. And because there are more Shermans, and the range is really close, the advantage passes over to the Americans. And that is why when I designed the scenario I made sure the Germans had lots of Panzerschrecks and Panzerfausts

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-03-2000).]

[MG Mannschft]

Okay, Let me try to Lay this out in an Orderly Fashion.

MantaRay,

We are not the Norm, if you will, when it comes to re-enacting. Infact we prefer to call ourselves a Living History Group. The Point of doing this is not to go out a be rambo, slap on a few awards and send out for beer and Pizza, But to mentally and physically blur the edge of time back to 1944. It's hard to explain or understand, I just cant. Like getting a video game that has realities like, Arty. fire, air power real mines, and lets not forget real bullets and imitation Death, but It just cant offer the whine of the wind in your helmet as you wait for your Uscha to command you to Fire. Sitting around munching on Food Like Pizza K rations or MRE's, is really really not allowed. And I dont consider myself at all a master expert on everything WWII let alone Warfar, The thing is on Thursday nights, Before we step into WWII, the club sits in the barracks and discusses Past Real historic battles, People, and most of all improvments on our own impressions and Tactics.

Re-enactments may not be Like Real Battles at all, but it is a hundred fold times, no a million fold more real then any computer simulation game can get. Trust me. (Try it out! We always need knowegable recurits like yourself and many others on this list).

Okay Moving on.

Andy (Grunto)

I Can see what you are saying. Okay Basic German "HMG" Squad is set up like this.

1) Squad Leader, Carries a MP-40 submachine gun. Leads the squad in combat, selecting fields of fire etc...etc.

2) Gunner No.1, Carries the MG-42 Duel-porpose Machine gun, With a Belt Loaded and one or two around his neck. He has a Pistol for close range self defence.

3) Gunner No.2, Carries a Pistol for his armerment. two Spare Barrels and Either two Ammunition boxes over his shoulder suspended by a strap. And if he's a big guy, one or two belts around his neck.

4) Gunner No.3, Carries a Rifle and the Laffete Mount M42.

5) Gunner No.4, Carries a Rifle and two More Ammuntion Boxes. Plus 50 around the Neck.

6) Gunner No.5, Carries a Rifle and two More Ammuntion Boxes. Plus 50 around the Neck.

Total That up (Ammuntion Cans can hold 250 Rounds, and Some, well most links around the neck are 2 50 belts linked together)

You get 1,800. About a minute and a half amount of fire for you adverage MG-42.

I think I've made my point, But I may not of.

I Deffintly argee with the "weight-of-all-hardware-including-remaining-ammo/active-crew-members=unit-speed" Theroy though. Great Idea!

Now, Steve.

When in the Role Of a HMG or a LMG, You still have to remove it from the tripod to move it. Thus allowing it to transform for transfer into a LMG, When dose everyone Carrying the MG-42's ammo dissapear to when you take it off of the tripod? Or can they just not load it like that? Why just not slow up the normal Infantry squads two, since they have a Laffete mount and a MG-42?

It's saying the same thing. Be that as it may of the ROLE of the HMG Team, The ROLE itself wont stop them from quickly getting themselves into postion so they can put the most fire out, in the minimum amount of time you actually see the enemy in the open.

Okay, I think I wrote that down right, But I'll know when you respond.

Another thing I've noticed, What is a MP-40 armed "Sub-Machine Gun Squad?" I Can see a MP-44 Late war squad. (Even though Most of MP-44 supplies where sent to the Ost Front) But I can say I've heard of it, But if it is true, Point out the Sorce, Please, Seriously I Am asking. What Unit is that based on? I Know the normal Squad Layout (Yes K98's). If I was to walk out on the re-enacment field and see a whole squad doped out with MP-40s and two MG-42s...My God Help us all.

Your Favorite Pal,

MG

[Dittohead]

Maybe I overstated the death rate, I was thinking more along the lines of the uncanny accuracy of shermans(105mm and 75mm) in VOT. I have seen both types moving forward and come under fire from the pillbox or Panther. The shermans then reverse and manage to score direct hits on the pillbox(slit penetration) or bounce a shell off of the Panther(gun hit once). It just seems that a tank moving forward and then quickly backing up should not be so accurate. I guess my badluck from my Squad Leader days has caught up to me. I use to play some guy who managed to roll an awfull lot of snake eyes on me. However in CE the shermans don't usually backup to engage the stugs. Must be based on the threat the AI perceives.

Overall with more terrrain, bigger maps and lots more Tanks(hehe) the accuracy issue probably wont even be noticed. Will be interesting when shermans have to engage multiple targets, King Tigers, Tigers, Jagd Tigers, Jagd Panthers etc. Can't wait!! Yeehaw

Tony

[Guest Big Time Software]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>When in the Role Of a HMG or a LMG, You still have to remove it from the tripod to move it. Thus allowing it to transform for transfer into a LMG, When dose everyone Carrying the MG-42's ammo dissapear to when you take it off of the tripod? Or can they just not load it like that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, your wording is pretty confusing, but I think I understand what you mean. There is a difference between the MG42, not because the weapon is somehow magically different, but because the unit itself is different. Yes, take the gunner form an HMG Team and the gunner from a squad and they will move at exactly the same pace. This is plainly obvious. But where things get different is what the rest of the unit is armed like. Overall, the rest of the squad is not weighed down nearly as heavily as the rest of the HMG team.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Why just not slow up the normal Infantry squads two, since they have a Laffete mount and a MG-42?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What source do you have that says a Laffete mount was standard equipment for a squad? This runs counter to everything on my bookshelf, as well as pure and simple understanding about the difference between what a LMG and an HMG is. Also note that no squad automatic weapon that I know of, of any nation in WWII or since, has a tripod as standard equipment. Perhaps this is part of why you don't understand the movement rates?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Be that as it may of the ROLE of the HMG Team, The ROLE itself wont stop them from quickly getting themselves into postion so they can put the most fire out, in the minimum amount of time you actually see the enemy in the open.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You missed my point entirely. The ROLE is as much a reflection of a weapon/team's ability as it is the other way around. ROLEs and abilities are intertwined. HMGs teams aren't as inherently mobile as a squad, therefore they can not be used in the same way. Hence a different ROLE.

As for you question about the SMG squad, this was a standard part of a Volksgrenaider platoon. Two squads armed with SMGs and a third with 2 LMGs. There were two such platoons to a company, with the third platoon being armed similar to a normal infantry Pattern 44 style. This style of division was designed to increase firepower at the squad level while economizing manpower and reducing training time. Note that each squad has one less man than a Pattern 44 squad and that an SMG is a lot more effective in the hands of an undertrained soldier than is a bolt action rifle.

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

Tony,

It is all in the laws of averages and the conditions. I had a stationary Sherman, with nobody threatening, take 4 shots to get a hit on the concrete MG pillbox one time. It took a further 3 to get the crew to abandon the thing (I must have caused some casualties or something, but no slit penetration IIRC). In general it seems to take about three shots to register a hit, and that seems about right. It is, after all, only an average so you will see first shot hits as well as 4 misses. Just hope you get the first shot hit and the other guy the 4 misses

Steve

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MG Mannschft:

Okay, Let me try to Lay this out in an Orderly Fashion.

Now, Steve.

It's saying the same thing. Be that as it may of the ROLE of the HMG Team, The ROLE itself wont stop them from quickly getting themselves into postion so they can put the most fire out, in the minimum amount of time you actually see the enemy in the open.

Okay, I think I wrote that down right, But I'll know when you respond.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't help myself, I have to post. I think the point you keep overlooking, and that several have made reference to, is the difference between the heady exuberance of hardcore recreation, and the reality of combat, and combat useage. Could a HMG squad , if driven and properly motivated, sprint like benzedrined bunnies to get into front line combat? Probably. Maybe even undoubtedly. Would they find it easy to do? After days, or weeks, of short rations, no sleep, shelling, and constantly moving that gun and all its accoutrements around (as others have suggested)? Probably not. Would 5 or 6 guys, loaded down like Atlas and sounding like a Tinker's caravan running the Preakness, really want to go charging hell bent for salvation into combat? Sometimes: probably; Most of the time, though, knowing that someone was likely to bust a cap into your ass while you concentrated on moving an arsenal into position, the people'd tend to slow down a little. Remember, the game isn't modeling, as Steve has said, people moving 'quickly' into position. Running is just that, going flat out. You don't model a combat game on the situation in which 6 guys who could machine gun for Germany in the Olympics do the 500m to get into position, and start ripping off shots. You model it on poor sods who've had the bloody flux for two days, eat nothing but rice, and who're heading into position carrying an iron foundry, and want to get there in some kind of shape to fight, if that's what they discover when they get there, without collapsing, puking, or having to wave time out. I am sure there were occurences in WWII combat, where heavy machine gun squads on every front, and in every army, put that poor sod who carried the message from Marathon to shame. Was it routinely done, was it even commonly done, and did most NCOs and officers expect it to be done? No, no, and not often. Not to mention that a squad who needs to arrive in a position to coordinate, pull the pieces together, and support each other just to get the equipment working, is not gonna move as fast as 9, 12 or whatever guys who're gonna dash into glory as individuals, take cover as needed, and make decisions once they're there on a slightly more individualistic level than a 'team' charging into position, all bent on servicing one piece of equimpment. I know you've read accounts of what vets could do, and I'm sure they could accomplish heroic deeds, when circumstances demanded it. But most of the time guys going into combat didn't know what would be expected of them in any given situation, and even the slightest doubt does not conduce to 'run heads down like hell and hope it comes out alright'. I don't mean to belabour you on this point, but I think you are using a false standard to analyze the behaviour modeled in the game. Merely my opinion, as it were, and imply no criticism of your group's re-creations.

------------------

After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[MG Mannschft]

Okay.

Now I'm quite confused. If you look at a Normal Infantry squad layout, And compare it with the HMG Squad lay out, You'll see that In the Case of the HMG Squad, They simply replicated the No.2 Gunner from a normal Infantry Squad. Carrying 2 Boxes of Ammuniton, and Belt or two around the Neck, And a P-38 Pistol, Or K-98 rifle. There is not loss of speed, there is just a increaced amount Of Firepower.

Unlike their Allied Counterparts, The German Maching Gun Squad Heavy or Light, had the same Basic Roll, and that was to put as much firepower in an Area as possible, according to the Chaos of battle. There Flexablity was the key, they could adapt quickly from the role of Static fire from a Tripod, to Mobile Advancing Fire with the Bi-Pod. The Allies could not Acoplish this because of their guns' in ablitly to be quickly transported and set up.

I Have many Scorces for The Listing of Standard infantry layout. The Best scorce is a Book Called: "The German Infantry Handbook" By Alex Buchner. Page 24. In this book, on the above page you see the Machinegun Setup with the Tripod.

In This book, nor any other book I can list. Shows the Actual exsistane of an Sub-Machingun Squad, Equiped with MP-40s, and it appears not to of been left out. It looks as if that it did not Exsist. Please Give us the Scorce, the Name of the Book, and the Author because none of the books that we have read, appear to show a sub-machine gun squad. Also in Addition if you have any photographic evidence please show me. I would be greatly interested.

MG

[Guest Big Time Software]

Where on Earth did you read that an HMG Team (please use the same terms as in the Game to avoid confusion) would suddenly switch roles and become a charging unit blazing away from the hip? And where again did you find that a Rifle Squad had a tripod as part of its standard loadout?

As for the layout of a Volksgrenadier division at the lower level... boy, that was a long time ago since we dug into this stuff. But since I keep tripping over this one, I can cite it right off the top of my head...

Handbook on German Military Forces, TM-E 30-451 (March 15, 1945). Table of interest is Figure 47, Section II-40. While the Handbook has minor errors, it is overall a sound source (especially the edition I have). Another source was printouts of German archives, and we probably had a third source (I can't recall) as we almost always did manage to have a third. Note, we only used TM 30-451 as a secondary source and differed to other sources when in conflict with it.

Steve

[MG Mannschft]

Steve,

First of all, We replied to the Tripod Question by reffering to the Book, "The German Infantry Handbook" By Alex Bunchner (Chater 3 Battle Troops, "The rifle Squad." Pages 23 to 24.) Try to find in your local Libray of books. As it is translated proffessionaly from Origanal German. If you wish you have more scorces from the origanal german documents with titles and author I would be glade to furnish those to you. The List is Long.

You have no Idea, they are the Exactly the opposite of american tactics. The germans used the maching gun to advance with while the riflemen covered them, that is the opposite of what the allies did during the same Time period. And the statisics prove that when fighting the russians, for every german that died, 15 russians fell.

Would you call that successful german tactics?

Remember it takes the US army a long time to figure something out, If you've ever been in.

So What you're Saying is instead of using origanal German training manuals and Origanal German Statistics on how they fought, you're reffering to a American Misguided Training Manual from the United States Army (That training mauael is so Misguided I am sorry you used that poorly written book) which so full of holes on how the german army fought during WWII espescially their squad level tactics inwhich the american army didnt realise the full vaule of untill the 1960's when they took a MG-42 and a FG-42 and made and M-60. And that is your Pace in which the United States army is in reconizing how vaulable the german tactical system was setup, it took them 15 years to figure it out. In other words, your basicing your facts on faulty U.S. documents issued instead of origanal german documents issued during the actual time, Read More Origanal german Documents. Then you'll begin to understand.

Give me some Speciffic titles and authors so I can verify what you are saying, Because so far I have you on actual documentation.

Please Explain Further. And How about those Photos and Documentation on those Non-exisitant Sub-machinegun MP-40 Squads.

MG

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Seanachai:

benzedrined bunnies

Tinker's caravan running the Preakness,

6 guys who could machine gun for Germany in the Olympics <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to see all of these modeled in Cm.

As for historical accuracy and such. I've been to MG Team's webpage. It is pretty cool, and looks fun. My question to him is. What sort of ranks are SS Oberpanzergrenadier and SS Panzergrenadier?

I don't recall seeing those in any reference I've ever read.

I also think you (MG Team) should research this bit about supporting with rifles and attacking with the HMG a bit more. I think you may, just may be a bit off.

[This message has been edited by Blackhorse (edited 06-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Blackhorse (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Blackhorse:

I'd like to see all of these modeled in Cm.

Actually, because the MG42 is such a superior weapon, the German HMG Olympics team continued to win the Gold Medal again and again, and the Olympic Committee therefore got rid of the contest in 1945. Replaced it with Women's Beachball - if you prefered the MG contest, you must be a Grognard

------------------

Andreas

The powers of accurate percetion are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[tss]

MG Mannschft wrote:

And the statisics prove that when fighting

the russians, for every german that died, 15 russians fell.

Are you seriously claiming that Soviets lost over 40 million soldiers KIA? Given that there were usually about 3-4 wounded for each KIA that would put Soviet total losses to 160-200 million. The whole population of SU was between 160 and 180 millions at the time. So, if your claim is correct, each and every russian male of military age was was killed after he had been wounded a couple of times. I seriously suspect that figure.

I have posted the current Soviet casualty figures before and I don't have time to post them again right now. You can find them by searching for "Krivosheev".

On the first post of this thread you wrote:

German Stug III's with "Regular" Crews, the best Optics for any Fighting Vehicles,

The optics don't matter much from short range. A few days ago I posted on Finnish experiences with 37 mm Bofors gun. There were two types of the guns, one with good optics and one with a simple open sight. In normal battle ranges both were as accurate. In fact, when firing at dusk the open-sighted version was more accurate.

- Tommi

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

MG Manshcft:

When was the last time you posted messages on a forum, and got next day replies from the actual game designers? Even if it has happened on some rare occassion, I doubt you were being as rude as you have been here.

Here's the thing. Steve & Charles, from BTS have been INCREDIBLY open to criticism and advice from ordinary people around here. They have gained alot of data from people they have encountered this way, but more importantly, it is just damn cool. Word of mouth spreads like wildfire, when a game like this is made "by gamers", "for gamers".

So I really have a problem the way you are coming off here. You DEMAND that they prove to you the existance of certain squads? You dont ask for sources, in an intellectual exchange, you act like you have them on the witness stand.

Now I could understand this approach over at Talonsoft of Atomic forums, because you just dont get anything from big game companies most of the time. They don't care, and they don't make major game changes based on what people tell them.

You are probably more knowledgable about force compositions than I am, for you dress up in outfits and sleep in the woods, but the thing is, BTS WOULD PROBABLY ALTER THE GAME IF YOU GAVE THEM GOOD DATA AND LOGICALLY REFUTED THEIRS!! These guys have been more reasonable and open with "us" gamers than anywhere I have ever seen, and you have to act like a prick.

LEARN HOW TO ACT LIKE A CIVILISED HUMAN BEING

The most telling thing to me was the name you chose for the thread "Spur of the Moment Complaining", which admits that you didn't think before you spoke, and your first sentence:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I just don't know<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, you said it.......

If it was my game, I would tell you to kiss my ass, and refuse to sell you a copy... The funny thing is, for all your bitching, you will probably line up right behind me to buy it.Have fun.

P.S. STEVE & CHARLES, there will probably be 20 more people like this between now, and CM2, I apologise on behalf of humanity that you have to deal with this crap.

[This message has been edited by *Captain Foobar* (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Blackhorse]

The following is taken from "Small Unit Actions During the German Campaign in Russia".

It is part of the Historical Series from the CMH, USA. It was originally published in 1953. It is the result of interviewing the German officers, non-commissioned officers, and soldiers who served on the Eastern Front.

"Chapter 1. Section VIII. Company G Recaptures Hill 726 (October 1942)

During the spring and summer of 1942 the Germans strengthened the Rzhev salient and eliminated Russian forces that had gained a foothold west of the Vyazma-Rzhev rail line. The salient gradually became one of the strongest defense lines the Germans had built in Russia. In the early autumn Marshal Zhukov launched an offensive against the Rzhev salient to divert German forces from the Stalingrad front and to eliminate this potential threat to the Russian capital. In this action, which is the last one in the series concerning the fighting west of Moscow, Company G resisted the onslaught of fresh Russian troops who had recently arrived from training centers in Siberia.

In mid-September Russian infantry supported by tanks seized Hill 726, some 10 miles north of Olenino. Once the Russians had wrested it from the Germans, they withdrew their tanks and left an infantry company of about 75 men to defend the newly won position. This hill now constituted a dent in the German MLR and afforded a sweeping view of the German rear area, thus hampering movements. Its rapid recapture was of vital importance to the Germans.

The Russian defense system on the hill was not organized in a continuous line, but rather in the form of strong points. The positions were quite deep, afforded overhead cover, and were so well camouflaged that they could only be detected at very close range. The communication trenches leading to the rear were deep enough only for crawling. All machineguns were emplaced so as to deliver only frontal fire. Mortars were emplace on the reverse slope of the hill, and large quantities of ammunition and handgrenades had been stored in the strongpoints. A belt of wooden mines-to which German detectors did not respond-extended almost completely around the hill. Gaps had been left in the mine belt to permit passage of friendly patrols. Before the attack, German reconnaissance patrols were able to identify these lanes.

Company G made five or six attempts to retake Hill 726, but failed; in each case the attack was halted at the very beginning because of heavy casualties incurred from mines and massed mortar fire. The Russians defended the hill with extreme tenacity. The company commander, CPT Veihmann, observed that the Russians confined their activity to the hours of darkness. During the day, their positions appeared deserted. Russian reconnaissance patrols were very active, but only between midnight and dawn.

Viehmann decided to launch a surprise attack at dusk on 2 October. He selected 30 men who, together with two flame thrower teams, were to make up the assault detachments. Six machinegun teams were to follow directly behind. After seizure of the hill, an intrenching team was to move in with previously prepared barbed wire obstacles, set them up on the reverse side of the hill, and establish defensive positions. All men in the assault detachments were equipped with sub-machineguns and issued an ample supply of handgrenades. They were familiar with the terrain, including Hill 726 itself and the Russian MLR.

Under cover of darkness and unnoticed by the Russian, the assault troops moved from their assembly area into the jumpoff positions. At the scheduled time the two companies along the flanks of the German MLR facing the right and left sides of the hill as well as the machineguns located on the southern slope poured fire into the Russian positions. While the german troops in the MLR diverted the enemy's attention by sudden shouting, the assault elements attacked and penetrated the Russian mine belt through two previously identified gaps.

The defending Russians were taken completely by surprise. The fire and shouting from all sides confused them as to the true direction of the attack. They were further thrown off balance by the German flame throwers, despite the fact that the latter failed to function after only a few bursts.

Nevertheless, the Russians did not give away to panic or abandon their positions, but struggled to the bitter end. After about an hour of hand-to-hand fighting the entire hill was in German hands, as were 20 Russian prisoners. The initial German objective, to cut Russian communicatiosn to the rear, had been achieved early in the attack. The Russian MLR was thereby out of contact with the defenders on the hill, who apparently were not alert enough to summon assistance from the rear before being cut off.

Once the hill was taken, The Germans immediately dispatched two listening sentries to points about 30 yards in front of their lines, set up barbed wire obstacles, and otherwise prepared their defensive positions. Within 2 hours a continuous line of barbed wire entanglemts stretched across the crest of the hill.

About an hour after the completion of these defenses one of the sentries reported the approach of about 40 Russians. All entrenching work was immediately suspended and the defense positions were quickly manned. Soon thereafter the second sentry confirmed the report of the first. The gap in the wire obstacle line which had until then been left open for the men at the listening post was closed.

At a given signal the Germans opened fire just as the screaming Russians began their counterattack. Rushing headlong into the wire entaglements, which they had failed to spot in advance, The Russians were cut down by the German defensive fire concentrated on that zone. Only three of the attackers were able to regain the safety of their jumpoff positions.

The next day the Russians directed heavy harrassing fire against Hill 726, but made no further attempts to conduct a concerted infantry attack."

A very cursory analysis shows:

1. MGs were used in support of the assault, not in the direct assault.

2. Assault teams were equipped exclusively with SMGs

3. FTs were not nearly as effective as hoped (**** happens example)

4. A solid plan and good leadership were key to victory that day.

[This message has been edited by Blackhorse (edited 06-04-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Blackhorse (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

MG Mannschft said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You have no Idea, they are the Exactly the opposite of american tactics. The germans used the maching gun to advance with while the riflemen covered them, that is the opposite of what the allies did during the same Time period. And the statisics prove that when fighting the russians, for every german that died, 15 russians fell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MG, what you're describing here is precisely the German usage of the MG42 in the LIGHT machinegun configuration. The German squad's main function on the battlefield was to provide an LMG42 as its main weapon, with riflemen to guard its flanks and carry ammo for it. No one argues with that. And CM allows this unit, along with its MG42, to move at the top speed allowed for infantry in the game.

The HMG42 - as a heavy machinegun is a totally different animal, for many reasons including more replacement barrels, tripod, and optics, but mainly one thing that's at issue here: bucketloads of extra ammunition. In CM we figure the MG42 ammo total based on the assumption that the ammo bearers are carrying 55 pounds (25 kilos) of MG42 ammo each in addition to their extra gear. Guys carrying that much weight aren't sprinting anywhere fast.

Of course the Germans wanted MG42s at the front of an attack - and that's why they gave one to every squad, with enough ammo to be effective but not so much that the squad could no longer maneuver at speed. THAT'S the difference that you fail to appreciate.

For a defensive, or more static support situation where fast maneuvering is less important, there is less disincentive to be weighed down, and a greater need for 'staying power' in battle (i.e. more ammo). So in this case, the weighty HMG configuration makes more sense.

The strength of the MG42 as a weapon is that it's relatively easy to switch between these two roles. Take an LMG42, toss in a couple more barrels, some optics, and a whole lot of ammo, and presto - you have an HMG42. That's flexible and effective. Nobody claims otherwise. But I do claim that German bullets are just as heavy as everyone else's! And when your MG shoots them very fast, you have to carry around a lot of them, which adds up to a lot of weight, and slower movement.

Charles

[Guest Germanboy]

Charles, you are a very patient man. Admirable.

MG, I agree with the earlier post here, and I would suggest that you maybe just read your own posts before sending them. Quite apart from the fact that you fail to deal with any sort of counter argument to your own, instead shifting from argument to argument, their tone is also a bit, shall we say, grating. At least to me.

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Andreas

The powers of accurate percetion are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[MrPeng]

*getting the flame-thrower ready*

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Peng sez "die a lot now."

[This message has been edited by MrPeng (edited 06-04-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

MG, if you are going to NOT read my responses propperly, then please do me the favor of not responding to my posts. You asked for a refference for Volksgrenadier formations, which I provided. You then decided to invent, in your head, that I used that to support the deployment of the HMG in combat. And doing so in an insulting and disrespectful way that is not productive I might add.

So far you have continually confused the LMG and HMG roles, have ducked the ammo load question, invented crazy casualty figures, etc. Grow up and learn how to behave like an adult. And if you continue to act like a total ass, you will not find me responding to you.

Also, I can cancel your preoder if you like since obviously we haven't a clue what we are doing and therefore the game itself is an utter waste of your time and money. I'd really hate to do this to you, so just let me know and I'll GLADLY cancel your order.

Steve

[THumpre]

I completely agree with Capt. Foo. I may just be a slacker but IMOHO MG is really acting like an ass. MG, it's their game, and they can and will make any way they want. Both Steve and Charles have been way too patient with you in your insistance that they verify their data.

Just the opinion of a "Certified" slacker

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No matter where you go, there you are.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrPeng:

*getting the flame-thrower ready*

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get in line Mr. Peng - you are #3. Which also means that you have to take a back-seat in the Van

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Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Guest grunto]

you guys may carry 1800 rounds in your simulation but according to the panzerblitz designer's notes:

"...german mgs had 3450 to 6300 rounds while russian ones had 800 to 2500..."

was the organization different on the western front to where the german machineguns might not have carried that much ammo? i think that your simulation might be off if your heavy machineguns can move around as fast as your regular squads... i'm not aware of any army where that's ever been the case... now a saw such as the light version of the mg42 was used for is a different story... capable of fire support but not sustained because they were only carrying a few hundred rounds of ammo...

same with the BAR... limited to a few hundred rounds of ammo and the guy carrying it was dying...

i can see where a crew with 6000 rounds of ammo would move a bit blowly... how many rounds does the crew in combat mission carry?

when you read those accounts of machinegunners in the pacific leading the attack, that doesn't mean that if the unit held a sprinting race at a picnic and with full gear that the hmg guys would be keeping up... they would probably be beating the 81mm mortar guys but not the light infantry... i could see machinegun crews taking it upon themselves to lead an attack where everyone else is pinned down but this doesn't mean they would win in a foot race under normal conditions... it just means they were gung ho.. when you get the scenario designer you can create your gungho machinegun crews, ok?.. at least i hope...

paintball is also a pretty good simulation of small unit tactics, bounding overwatch, infiltration, ambush, etc..

andy

[Guest Mirage2k]

Grunto: I believe (but let's see if BTS can back me up on this) that that is exactly what BTS has said...the light MG42 and its crew, with its lower ammo load, can move as fast as the light rifleman. The heavy MG42 (the one that is labeled in CM as "MG42 HMG") is slower.

-Andrew...amazed that this forum can get so abusive.

[Guest grunto]

-Will be interesting when shermans have to engage multiple targets, King Tigers, Tigers, Jagd Tigers, Jagd Panthers etc. Can't wait!! Yeehaw-

i was thinking of the jadgpanther. one of those could give an allied tank company fits if the conditions were right. that's the same gun as the king tiger's 88mm on there right? the jagdpanther has good speed and that gun and frontal armor would be excellent especially in something at long range.

shermans are like t34/76s- you pretty much have to close the range because the closer you get to the heavier german tanks the more equal you become... out at long ranges you may as well call in air or artillery instead...

andy