Guest Rommel21 Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 Why 1944-45, there are better times than that with lots more action. 1940,41,42 and 43 KURSK!!! Those years experienced one of the most tense and biggest tanks battles the world has ever seen. And 1940 France that would be a blast too, with smaller tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 Errrm, because the eastern front is CM2 I believe its going to cover the entire eastern front from the launch of the campaign to the last days in berlin. Should be a fun one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 Marketing me thinks. US is a big market. US and allies in Europe was really just small frie to the germans at that point. They were losing so much to the russians it was getting laughable. The whole france fiasco was just another bad campaign. I believe the whole machine was breaking down as far as the germans were concerned. The whole 'blitzkreig' way of war was old hat and brute force/firepower/airpower now ruled. Panzer warfare, even in defense, was not getting it done and it crumbled into a desperate situation where the germans felt like rats. The germans should have known from the Italian campaign and the Japanese experience that ship borne invasions were unstoppable. To face western airpower was nothing like the russian front where strategic and effective tactical airpower never really developed to the point of domination. The german army was between a rock and a hard place and scared to face the fuhrer. They paid. Attrition ruled. Numbers and Logistics cant be denied. They went down fighting. They had to. The russians never gave up at the gates of moscow and the american factories never lost a days production to the german war effort. Someone said "Make peace fools" but the fools had committed historys worst crimes at that point and there was no place to go but to go down fighting. They fought. Give em that. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 Also you need to take into account that the eastern front involves many more vehicles than the western front, and thus will be a much larger undertaking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 Well Kwazy towards the end the germans sent an imbalance of armor towards the west. It was ..well .. kwazy. I bet Panzerfaust (the one shot wonder..meaning the firer never shot another!) held up the russians. They really came into their own in late 44-45. Maybe the germans had some kind of death wish towards the end. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 Actually, what KwazyDog was saying is that there are so many MODELS that need to be done for the Eastern Front. I agree Doing the Western Front first was logical for a bunch of reasons, but one was to take a smaller bite out of the German vehicle list so we wouldn't have to do the whole thing in one go. But anybody that thinks the Western Front lacks cool tactical combat is simply misinformed. I am an Eastern Front nut first and foremost, but the Western Front at the tactical level is every bit as challenging. Perhaps even more so in some regards. The Soviets managed to come up with "answers" to each of the German AFVs that were introduced. The Western Allies generally seemed to miss the question, and therefore their answers were incomplete Makes things interesting in a different way. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 I imagine those things were as much useful to the Germans as an infantry morale booster as they were a way to kill Russian tanks. I have the figures somewhere of the amount of these they were turning out in the last 12 months of the war. If I recall (and I havnt read it for a while) the peak production was early 45. *If* I recall correctly product was up around the 100,000 unit mark a month. They were working on a model that was effective out to the, ermm, the 150-200m rage. Hehe, if anyone is interested in real figures here instead of my guesses let em know and Ill dig out the data tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: But anybody that thinks the Western Front lacks cool tactical combat is simply misinformed. I am an Eastern Front nut first and foremost, but the Western Front at the tactical level is every bit as challenging. Perhaps even more so in some regards. Steve <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes Tactical cool but again Steve and I are focusing on different levels. My general impression from reading excellant references such as "Steel Inferno" is that the german effort runs out of steam. They did not have the comprehension of the warpower that would come into play. The Allied level of men, material, firepower, airpower, support, advantage of two front war, mobility, and absolute decisiveness!! The german war machine was outclassed on almost all levels but superior armor (at reduced ranges then they were used to) and sheer intestinal fortitude. Whats "cool" is subjective. Whats smart is not what happened in Normandy. The germans put a war machine in france that was not sustainable. They really had two strategic options. One: Defeat the invaders on the beach. Two: Gradually retreat so as to inflict casualties that would allow them to launch attacks OUT of range of ship borne guns AND without facing allied air attacks from airfields in france. They did neither. They screwed up again. All the battles in Caen and elsewhere were just a formality with medals handed out to the efforts wasted by brave men. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 > The Western Allies generally seemed to miss > the question, and therefore their answers > were incomplete Makes things interesting in > a different way. I had always thought the Western allies where very consistant thier "answers". It was always "Build more!". The Panther and the Tiger are both very fine tanks, but neither can stand up to a dozen Shermans or a flight of P47s! ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 "Actually, what KwazyDog was saying is that there are so many MODELS that need to be done for the Eastern Front. I agree " Hehe, yup, thats what I was meaning As for the rest of the conversation its looking to be a bit to stressful for 1:30 am, hehe. Errrmm, Lewis, I think you were over analysing Steves answer a bit there Nice response though but Im not really sure what it was too...we were origionally talking about in game 3D polygon models and the practical reasons the Western Front was done be the Eastern. I certainally wasnt talking strategies or tactics, tis not my area of expertise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 Must.....resist.....urge.....to.....flame. Rommel21, BTS plans to fully cover all of the "Western" theater. Combat Mission 2 will be the Eastern Front including Finland Combat Mission 3 will be the Mediterranean Front including North Africa, Italy, Balkans, Middle East-(I think). Combat Mission 4 will be the Early War including Poland, France, Low Countries ------------------ "Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!" "Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!" --from the film Battlefield Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted May 4, 2000 Share Posted May 4, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog: Nice response though but Im not really sure what it was too...we were origionally talking about in game 3D polygon models and the practical reasons the Western Front was done be the Eastern. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was actually adressing Romme21's question as to why BTS would have chosen the European theatre of Ops. My guess is marketing towards the US numbers. Hence the traditional Normandy, France, Bulge battles where US troops did alot of fighting. The inclusion of Canadian, British, and other Allied troops helps from a selling point also. The scope and scale of the game favors the terrain in CM1. I have a hard time imagining panthers shooting up T34s at 2000 meters in a CM map. There would be less Models in France 1940 if that were the design criteria. But sales would be sucko and a poor initial showing would not be conducive to a CM2 where ever that theatre would be. Sorry if I waxed strategic but the Germans in 1944-1945 had the cool toys but not much else. Personally , I want to see the Eastern Front more, especially 42-43. It will be interesting to see how BTS simulates the Soviet lack of command, communications and control. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Heya Lewis. Ahh, I see where you are coming from now I agree that france in 40 would certainally be less popular than 44-45 for CM's initial release, though in the end would probably include a good amount of vehicles. Probably just more obscure ones all in all. Still, I think there was much more behind choosing 44-45 over the Eastern Front than just simply marketing to the population. Each vehcile takes probably 20-30 hrs, and you know how many there will be on the Eastern Front from the beginning of the war to the end Id say if CM1 was Eastern Front, people wouldnt be seeing it for a while to come. Also, the other thing to consider is that there will probably be extra rules (for lack of a better word) required for the eastern front that will require extra programming as well. I guess what I am suggesting is that CM1 was probably chosen for the Western Front because it is one that people will enjoy but also and probably more importantly it makes an excellent test bed for the CM engine Anyways, hehe, I guess its not really all that important anyways. Steve and Charles are the only ones that can really answer this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Yeah, I'd love to play a France, '40, version of CM, too. It'd be great to experiment with the Matildas and Char B1 Bis(? the monster French tank) and watch them carve up some PzKwIIIs and those short 75mm IVs. Kind of funny how the Allies had the slow behemoths when they were getting their butts kicked in the beginning of the war and that the Germans had the armored monsters at the end when they were caving in. On the Western Front, anyway. Dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Good point Dar. Never thought of it that way. So it comes down to light and fast tanks doesn't it? Hence, "Blitzkrieg" I guess. Same can be applied to Desert Storm. Quickness in battle, namely in the attack, always wins out in the end over high level defenses. ie "Mother-of-All-Battles", impregnitable barrade, (sorry can't remember what Saddam called it ) ------------------ "Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!" "Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!" --from the film Battlefield Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Finland in CM2? I'm there! . Would much rather be fighting the Russians... ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen. Sosaboski: Finland in CM2?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, AFAIK, the "Winter War" was gonna be part of CM2's repritrar. (sp?) ------------------ "Why don't we say that we took this one chance, and fought!" "Stupid humans. Hahahahahahaha!" --from the film Battlefield Earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts: repritrar. (sp?) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL depends.. what are you trying to spell? Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted May 5, 2000 Share Posted May 5, 2000 Lather, rinse, reprit. From repritrare, "to consume bandwidth". As in "Repritraro, ergo sum". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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