SGTRock Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Ok if I'm being rhetorical I'm sorry..Ok if I'm being rhetorical I'm sorry. I've heard a lot about how the AI in this game is gonna kick...but is it gonna kick my a** so much that I'll get frustrated and fling my CDRom out the window? What I'm asking is, is can the AI make mistakes? I'm sure you didn't make it so that as soon as it sees you doing a move that's already programmed into it it automatically counters your move?? Can it make mistakes? Is it human enough to make hasty decisions without thinking sometimes?? I know we all do this and act on impulse rather than reason sometimes... How bout it BTS? ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Ahem! Its hard enough to make an AI unbeatable without cheating as it is........... but fuzzy logic should make its decisions a bit variably from game to game I believe - is it BTS? BTS have you tried running the same scenario several times - what does this cpu do, is it different evrytime? This would help replayability of preset scenarios CCJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Funny enough, I just posted a small little description of what it is like to play the AI while it is on the attack (the harder thing for the AI to do right). Nearly beat the pants off me, but I manged to fight it to a draw. With a few tweaks it would have kicked my ass The poor player is going to get beat hard. The moderate player is going to beat hard most of the time. A really good player is going to find it tough to win, but will more often than not after a lot of experience with CM first. In other words, if you are the best at some other wargame right now, you will likely find CM kicking your butt for a while BTW, the AI pulled a surprise on me and KO'd 4 out of 4 of my tanks in under 1 minute. And I *knew* exactly what it had for forces and even where I was likely to be attacked from! But the AI deployed things differently and caught be off guard. Bastard In all seriousness, I laughed my ass off when it brewed up my third tank! I just couldn't believe I was getting smoked so quickly in the THIRD TURN Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoolColJ Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Hey Steve Even though I want the AI to be super tough, I do get angry when it beats my butt I do enjoy totally trouncing some one - something I've done occasionally in CC3 on the MSN ZONE. I think, not knowing what the AI has and where he is attacking from, would make you a bit more cautious, don't you think Steve I know when I'm playing against a human, I tend to inch my units around the map - death comes quickly when playing against a human ....looks like it'll be the same with CM. There are difficulty levels right? Will this tweak the AI or other things? CCJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 BTS, make the AI as hard and as challenging as possible. Do not implement "artificial" flaws in the AI routines And what you told us about your experience in the test battle sounds very promising. Now waiting for the demo (and put it on a lot of mirror servers Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Fred, I think what the sarge is getting at is that wars (at least back then) were fought by humans, not computers. And human commanders (even the best of them) made plenty mistakes. So while we would all like a good AI, I think that it also makes a lot of sense that it will mess up from time to time just like we do in the real world. I wouldn't want the AI to turn infallible, like it is in most chess games on the highest settings, for example. Real war is a messy and unpredictable affair where plenty of mistakes are made at all levels. So the AI, IMHO, needs to be balanced between these factors and still provide a competent challenge (i.e. coordinate proper attacks, not do outlandishly stupid things like I've seen in some other games, etc.) for the player. Steve, Are there going to be different AI settings? I believe the answer to this in the past was yes. Correct? Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 I think I need to pop this balloon before it grows too large... The AI in Combat Mission is good. Compared to most other wargames, it's very good, relatively-speaking. However, having said that, I want to stress that it is absolutely not some sort of perfect man-killing cyborg from hell. "Are you Sandra Connor? Would you care to play Combat Mission? Ha ha ha... I am a machine and you cannot win, puny human!" Sorry, just a little Terminator reference there. My point is that ground combat is such a complex activity that it will be a long time before a PC-based AI can consistently beat a good human player. So I don't want people to walk away from this forum thinking that we're boasting that our AI can beat all human players all the time. It can't. Not even close to that. But here's what it can do. It can make you work hard to win. If you get careless, it will punish you. Sometimes harshly. Move your tanks around without a sound plan and expect to see them explode and burn. Send troops in without covering fire and expect the few survivors that make it back to be bloodied and panicked. But if you're smart, and you pay attention, and you don't get careless, you can win. With practice, you will probably win more than you lose against the AI. Like I said, there are limits to what we can program into a typical Pentium or PowerPC, and the best CM player in the world will be a human, not the AI. Maybe that champion will be you! So don't worry. CM's AI is good but you can beat it. It is not perfect, and it does make mistakes. On the other hand, it's good enough always to give you a real challenge. You'll have to think to win. It's definitely not the braindead kind of AI that you might be used to from some other wargames. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 I hope that some scenarios will have plenty of time to reach the objectives. This way the player can fall back, recon, shift forces before contact. I know reality doesn't always give you this chance but sometimes I guess it would. This way you aren't forced into an aggressive posture immediately. [This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 10-19-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCrawler Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 It's Sarah Connor, not Sandra... ------------------ Jon Johnson Steel Lightning Productions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 19, 1999 Author Share Posted October 19, 1999 "I think what the sarge is getting at is that wars (at least back then) were fought by humans, not computers. And human commanders (even the best of them) made plenty mistakes." That's exactly my point. For instance can the AI have human reactions like surprise and disorientaiton? I know that the game Dark Riegn had some excellent AI for instance you could ambush a unit and send the computer into a nervous frenzy, it would eventually slow down and get reorganized, but it was still a natural human reaction. Even for a battle ready general the element of surprise could still if not throw him off throw his troops off. I think while programming AI I am not asking you to dumb it down, but make the reactions of the computer vary more, and have a type of emotional response to alternate actions and environments... For example: Durring pouring rain a soldier could be more pron to being more tedious and a little run down in stamina rather than on a sunny day. or. Unit pops up in front of you that you weren't expecting and shocks you a little bit. Does that make sense? Maybe I'm going to far, I'm sure there are more subtle issues that I'm not thinking of at the moment. ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Yeah, why don't you just add Commander Data's Emotion chip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 19, 1999 Author Share Posted October 19, 1999 Just read AI story. Doesn't really answer my question but does give me a little more HU on the AI ... ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 19, 1999 Author Share Posted October 19, 1999 "Yeah, why don't you just add Commander Data's Emotion chip?" Knew there'd have to be at least one wise crack on this post... ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Yeah, but it was a funny wisecrack This is not always the case! Anyhoo, what Charles said. Poor/sloppy players will most likely get their clocks cleaned. "Poor/sloppy", BTW, has nothing to do with gaming experience. I fully expect Grogs who try to micromanage too much to wind up losing because they aren't playing with enough creativity. Those players that can combine sound intuitions with a firm understanding of combined arms will do the best against the AI (and human for that matter). Personally, I find it very difficult to beat the AI, but so far I have most of the time. The difference between winning in CM and in other games is that I generally don't know that I am going to win until the very last moment. Every battle is a cliff hanger and that is the most I could ever ask for. Winning and losing are basically not important, it is how the game plays. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Sgt. Rock, We're talking about the "strategic" AI here, the part that gives orders for the computer player. You asked for human mistakes/emotion. Basically you'll find that in the "tactical" AI - the part that actually carries out the orders (for the human player as well as the computer player). Panic, disorientation, etc. - it's in the TacAI. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 20, 1999 Author Share Posted October 20, 1999 Thanks Charles, That pretty much covers what I wanted to know. On the topic of the wisecrack: STEVE "Yeah, but it was a funny wisecrack This is not always the case!" I can't see the humor in it. I think it's more Nerdy than witty...You didn't need a scope to see that Nerd retort creeping up a mile away. Snort...Snort...Snort. So Bil: Go back to watching your re-runs and your conventions and maybe that joke will be funnier when you sit around with the rest of your trekky friends and talk about the good old days when Kirk was captain, or whatever... And everyone goes: OOOOOOOOoooooo Hit a soft spot there eh Sarge? And I answer: Nope. Just thought that was a nerdy comment. Next time find some quick wit not fabricated lame fiction and I'll reward you with my kudos. ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 20, 1999 Share Posted October 20, 1999 SgtRock, So now you are attacking me? I was just having a little fun with you. For your information I happen to agree with you, I just don't see how "emotions" can get coded into the AI at the present state of technology. *That* was the Genesis of my retort. I'm sorry you missed it, but really that doesn't surprise me. Don't go throwing the stones at me. You don't know me, and chances are, you never will. [This message has been edited by Bil Hardenberger (edited 10-20-99).] [This message has been edited by Bil Hardenberger (edited 10-20-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 20, 1999 Share Posted October 20, 1999 I apologize to the other readers out there. I hate it when a Forum becomes a public Bitching ground between two people. I would have rathered SgtRock send his concerns via e-mail, but he chose to post them instead. I was forced to respond in kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 20, 1999 Author Share Posted October 20, 1999 And I apologize too Not all of us have the same sense of humor, I meant no discontent to Bil but, served to remind him in a witty way that the comment didn't fit the context. In anycase if this has offended anyone and you think that this is as Bil put it a, " public Bitching ground " Let's put it right. If you can't take the heat stay out of the frying pan. Again, Thanks for your response Charles. ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 20, 1999 Share Posted October 20, 1999 Now isn't that gentlemanly? I suppose we are going to have to settle this for good on the field of battle when the CM Demo comes out eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 20, 1999 Author Share Posted October 20, 1999 Looking back though, I can see where you'd get the wrong Idea Bil.. I guess theres was a little animosity in that retort... Sorry. Steve or Charles I think you can close the thread now. ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 20, 1999 Share Posted October 20, 1999 Guys (specifically Bil and Sgt Rock), Well done (and I mean it). As flame wars go that one was very short and simply due to a misunderstanding. I suggest that you take recourse to the field of battle with the beta demo when it comes out and settle it the old fashioned way Seriously though, misunderstandings happen. It's good to see this one fizzled out real quickly in the greater scheme of things. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted October 20, 1999 Share Posted October 20, 1999 Fionn, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I suggest that you take recourse to the field of battle with the beta demo when it comes out and settle it the old fashioned way<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This has already been scheduled BTW Dave and I have had an e-mail chat and everything is hunky dory. We agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGTRock Posted October 20, 1999 Author Share Posted October 20, 1999 HEY FIONN, STAY THE @#$% OUT OF THIS YOU @#$$@! MICK!! LOL Just kidding, thanks man, Bil and I are already planning our time to meet on the field of battle as we speak...let us know when the demos coming out! Hey Fionn or Steve or Charles or anyone! can you tell me if, and how we can chat durring battle in Mplayer or leave messages via PBEM? I asked this before but no one responded? ------------------ Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 20, 1999 Share Posted October 20, 1999 Wow, you guys need to do this sort of thing when I am awake so I can squash it early on Glad to see everything ended up nicely while I was catching up on some z's There is no chat feature built into CM for PBEM. Just taunt the guy in the email with the attachment and take it from there. Trust me, after seeing Martin and Fionn go at it this way I can tell you it works JUST fine As for TCP/IP I don't know yet. That is the next feature to go in after the Demo. Also, MPlayer is not going to happen. They want us to sell about 100,000 units before they are willing to talk with us (though this might change, so they tell me). We will try and get something going with Kali, but at the moment it isn't a high priority for v1.0. Don't get me wrong, it is something we want to do, but it isn't worth holding up the game for. A patch will do quite nicely instead. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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