Guest PatB_TGN Posted May 15, 1999 Share Posted May 15, 1999 Howdy, Since this engine is truly 3-D, are paratroopers going to be falling from the sky? Love to see the 82nd or 101st in true form! And I don't mean scattering to the four winds. I read in the FAQ [Market Garden (Paras and Monty's Drive)]. Are they to be depicted already on the ground? Thanks, -Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted May 15, 1999 Share Posted May 15, 1999 Patrick, this was covered awhile back but if I recall correctly, parras will start the battle already on the ground and formed up into combat effective units. Sorry, only bombs & birdsh*t will be falling out of CM's skies. ------------------ Rhet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 15, 1999 Share Posted May 15, 1999 Rhet is correct (well, except for the birds <g>). The forming up time is too great for CM's scale of combat. You would likely sepend the whole game just moving guys around without doing anything more than that. However, if you really want to you *can* simulate scattered paras using our very flexible setup zone system. This allows you to have little start zones anywhere on the map and allowing the Germans either to set up freely or in their own little zones. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PatB_TGN Posted May 15, 1999 Share Posted May 15, 1999 Great! Thanks for the feedback. I did scroll all the way down the board and read the FAQ before opening my trap! Simulating the DZ scatter affect is just fine. I know simulating men dropping from the sky is eye-candy. Tally-ho! -Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Dreyer Posted May 15, 1999 Share Posted May 15, 1999 I understand that paratroopers will not be included but how about glider assaults? It would be nice to be able to recreate the assault on Pegasus Bridge for example, or the attack on Eban Emmael, or the German attacks against the AA guns in Crete (these last 2 when the early war expansion comes out...). These kinds of actions would fit nicely with the scale of Combat Mission. Ciao, Renaud Dreyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 16, 1999 Share Posted May 16, 1999 Hi Renaud, You are correct that gliders avoid the scattering problem that paras have (they are included, BTW, but not as jumpers). However, it is not a trivial task to include them. We would have to simulate airspeed, wind, landing error, landing damage, etc. For the very few scenarios possible (Crete & Eban Emmel aren't covered in CM's time frame) it isn't worth the work. Also, you *can* recreate the Pegasus bridge by plopping the glider troops down and starting the battle from right AFTER they landed. Since that battle lasted for, what, close to 2 days, leaving out the first 2 minutes of the landing doesn't seem to harm the possibilities for that battle at all. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 16, 1999 Share Posted May 16, 1999 Steve, I don't think its necessary to simulate the actual act of glider landings graphically etc BUT I might have come up with a way to put it in yet keep the workload down.. Here goes. 1. Gliders are NOT shown graphically landing. 2. The scenario designer picks Landing Zones for the Allied glider-borne troops and then these troops randomly land in and around (or sometimes very far away) from the landing zones. 3. I'm sure it wouldn't be TOO hard to put in a basic algorithm based on type of terrain where the glider landed which calculates the casualties on a glider by glider basis (this algorithm need only be VERY basic). 4. When the scenario starts the Allied player would see his gliders already on the ground. Perhaps 3 glider graphics would be useful ( 1 for an extremely beat up glider with massive casualties, 1 for a moderately beaten up glider with minor casualties and a somewhat suppressed passenger group and a third glider which is intact showing visually that the men are AOK). This way you can simulate the details, confusion and scattering of a glider-borne invasion whilst not choking on having gliders land in full 3D etc. I also like the idea of having glider-borne troops available in a meaningful way (I think putting them in but ommitting the gliders they landed in would be a mistake since obviously a headcount of gliders and their condition would be a VERY important part in formulating any German players strategy. In fact I can already think of LOTS of scenarios I would like to play using this method. Any chance of including generic commandos? Kind of ramped up paratroopers for those who, like me are thinking about commando landings to take bridges etc??? I know this might be a bit much a bit too late but is surely is something to bear in mind for add-ons . I'm sure an add-on/ new game with special paratrooper coding etc would sell well. paras seem to be pretty sexy to the general public Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted May 16, 1999 Share Posted May 16, 1999 Something tells me that if they put it in they're going to want to it right. Not that what you suggest isn't feasible or good, I could see it greatly enhancing scenario design. I agree that as a second release to include para's would be a great boon to it's marketability. God that would be sweet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 17, 1999 Share Posted May 17, 1999 Fionn, we could do all of what you suggested, but of course the clock is ticking Since Combat Mission is supposed to be a "general" wargame, in the sense that it isn't only one thing (i.e. airborne, armor battles, etc.), we really can't cater too much to airborne ops. On the scale of things airborne ops were a very minor part of WWII warfare. Important, and interesting, but rare when looked at through CM's scope. Right now you can do nearly everything you suggested, except have totally random deployments, head counts, and graphical gligers. The Scenario designer can scatter forces by making lots of very little deployment areas. Sure the player can still move forces around within each area (but not between if desired) during the Setup Phase, but if the deployment area is only 25x25m, it really isn't going to matter much. You can also reduce headcount for individual squads in the editor, as well as tweak their starting condition (i.e. beatup and dejected). While none of this is on-the-fly random, it is there to be used. It is also going to ship, while the other stuff will not Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted May 18, 1999 Share Posted May 18, 1999 This subject has always bothered me. The concepect of a senario where the paratroops have just landed and are scattered to the four winds (trust me!), and the opposing player knows all of this is impossable. Or at least Impossable that the allies are going to win, and if they where to draw or win at it would be at extreme casulity rates. In WWII when airborne forces where used they relied on suprise and and the ability to put a farily large force on the ground quickly. If suprise is accomplished then the paratroops can develop a 'Relitive Superiorty" over ther enemy for a short time. When there is no suprise, disaster. (The polish drop in Market Garden is a good one.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted May 19, 1999 Share Posted May 19, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In WWII when airborne forces where used they relied on suprise and the ability to put a farily large force on the ground quickly.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dan, the problem is that when scenario designers model a parra drop they do not realistically set it up. They usually include a defensive force that is too large and is already set up in their defensive positions. In areas where you would expect a Parra drop(and the Germans did account for airborne invaision in Normandy) your defensive units have to be widely dispersed to cover the enormous amount of potential landing zones. So for a parra battle such as in Normandy, The Germans should be restricted to a relitivily small set up defensive force with reinforcements arriving from one map edge or another. The Amis on the other hand should get a large force that is scattered to the winds. While CM's ability to handle parras at this stage is not perfect but is wholly adequate for the task. Basically, it will be up to the scenario designer to achieve good play balancing (with a keen eye on reality as well). Again, just another of my opinions, I could be wrong. ------------------ Rhet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 19, 1999 Share Posted May 19, 1999 Steve, Cool, as long as basic functionality is in that'll be great. I am TOTALLY aware that the clock is ticking but in my role as obstreperous grognard I just had to throw it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 19, 1999 Share Posted May 19, 1999 Rhet, I agree with your thoughts. The only qualification I would make is that while CM doesn perfectly simulate the first couple of minutes of an airborne drop, it is infinitely more capable of doing everything afterwards better than any other game out there. The initial shock and troop displacement can easily be simulated in CM. The *only* thing that can't be simulated is the uncertainty of where one's own paras are going to show up. So if you want to have a realistic situation like you described, piece of cake Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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