4th SS Pz Reg, and US 325th Glider Battalion question

[noob]

What should the CM experience setting be for the 4th SS Pz Reg, and the US 325th Glider Battalion, during the Ardennes offensive ?

[Oddball_E8]

Conscript and conscript to simulate the reluctance of real life soldiers to take casualties...

[YankeeDog]

I assume you mean the 325th Glider Infantry Regiment, not Battalion...

The 325th had seen combat in Italy, Normandy, and Holland. The regiment had also been deployed to North Africa, but did not see combat there. While the regiment did sustain its share of casualties in these operations, it did not sustain debilitating losses in any of them, so in December 1944 a good core of the regiment, and most importantly the NCOs and junior officers, would have seen substantial action in three major campaigns. The unit also had over a month of R&R time prior to deployment in BotB, so they had time to rest, heal wounds and train replacements.

So I'd expect a mix of "Veterans" and "Regulars" in CM terms, with only a very rare "Green" unit, representing a unit that was stuck with a poor NCO and/or had a high proportion of recent replacements. A few Crack units here and there, representing experienced soldiers with a particular aptitude for combat. Further, even in the less experienced units I would expect good Motivation levels -- historically, units of the 325th showed very good esprit de corps fighting under difficult conditions during BotB.

IMHO, "Elite" level in CM is best reserved for the one-in-a-millions -- MoH winners and the like. The 325th had a few of these, but I wouldn't expect to see more than 1 or 2 on any given CM battlefield, even in the most experienced combat units.

[JasonC]

First off, there is no 4th SS Panzer regiment. You undoubtedly mean the 4th SS Panzergrenadier regiment, which was a component of the 2nd SS division. (SS Panzer battalions took their numbers from their divisions; regiments were separately and sequentially numbered).

Next, 2SS was certainly a veteran formation overall, but it had gone through two rebuilds before the Ardennes fighting. When it was withdrawn from the east in mid 1944, before the Normandy campaign, it was down to 8000 men, and was topped off with that many raw recruits in the first rebuild. Those men fought in Normandy, and it lost another 4000 or so there, though it got out in better shape than most. It then was rebuilt before the Ardennes fighting.

So the component that had actually seen east front action was quite small by this date, in the ranks at least. Some of the cadre, certainly. The most recent additions were trained but green, had not seen action before, but were being integrated into a force with veteran leaders. The much larger top off pre-Normandy more seriously diluted the formations average manpower quality.

I'd say the line was mostly regular, with a mix of up to a third veteran, including many of the HQs - that would be the accurate quality mix. Most of the men had seen action before, if only in Normandy for most of them. There could be small elements higher still, crack, but only small elements - mostly the east front vets were diluted to lead the younger soldiers.

As for 325th Glider, it first fought at Salerno, then made the Normandy and Market-Garden drops. It lost heavily in Normandy and had to be topped off. It wasn't as badly hit in Market Garden, but still needed a few thousand replacements after that one. That means regular for the low end - integrated into an experienced unit, not too many in the most recent top-off - and a solid 40-50% or so veteran.

[YankeeDog]

4th Pz Gren. Regiment aKa Der Führer is a tougher one to nail down... The unit had been seen action in many of the major operations of the war since it first saw action in the invasion of France in 1940. So on the one hand, it was it was a highly experienced unit andas an SS unit with a somewhat legendary history it probably had high esprit de corps.

OTOH, it had taken severe losses on several occasions. Most significantly, it had been virtually wiped out in the winter of 1941 on the East Front, and had to be rebuilt almost from scratch thereafter. So almost none of the regiment's soldiers who participated in the Invasion of France in 1940, were still with the regiment when it fought again in France in 1944. Closer to Battle of the Bulge, the regiment had participated in the German counterattack at Mortain in August of 1944 and while it did manage to escape the Falaise pocket, it sustained severe losses.

So by December 1944, the regiment was probably a mix of very experienced veterans, but also a substantial proportion of more recent replacements. And by late 1944, Germany was having a harder and harder time making good losses, so not all of the replacements would be of particularly good quality. As a SWAG, I would peg the regiment as having substantial numbers of Veteran and Crack units, especially in the HQ units, representing the experienced survivors, but also some Regular and even Green units, especially amongst the squad infantry, representing fairly recent replacements with less combat experience.

EDIT: Ninja's by JasonC. But we seem to be more or less in agreement, so there you go.

[noob]

I assume you mean the 325th Glider Infantry Regiment, not Battalion...

First off, there is no 4th SS Panzer regiment. You undoubtedly mean the 4th SS Panzergrenadier regiment, which was a component of the 2nd SS division. (SS Panzer battalions took their numbers from their divisions; regiments were separately and sequentially numbered).

Boy am I getting schooled today ........sorry for the mistakes, nomenclature is not my speciality.

Thanks for the information, I think I have enough to work with now.

[nuzrak]

There is also a book about the 4th SS PG regiment called, 'Comrades to the end' by Otto Weidinger a Das Fuhrer unit commander, published by Schiffer Military History that covers his and the units entire war history from 1938 - 1945 in a kind of diary fashion.

It's a little biased at times, but that is understandable as the man is obviously very proud of his regiment, but it's still a very good read.