Guest PatB_TGN Posted May 21, 1999 Share Posted May 21, 1999 Howdy, If someone from BTS would be so inclined, please post two ballistic charts. A US .50 cal MG (Mounted or not mounted, whichever is least effective) vs. a SPW 251/1 and a MG-42 (Bipod or Tripod whichever is least effective) vs. a US M3 Halftrack. If ya folks are too strapped for time, don't sweat this request. I'm just curious Question: How are tired + tracked vehicles (i.e. Halftracks) handled when receiving direct fire? Higher chance of immobility? Thanks, -Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted May 21, 1999 Share Posted May 21, 1999 Patrick, I could be wrong here, but I don't believe CM is modeling the ballistics of small arms and machine guns. Only "large" caliber gun ballistic models are included. I.e. main battle tank guns, AT guns, maybe artillery??? Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 21, 1999 Share Posted May 21, 1999 Actually, MG ballistics are simulated, but not to the nth degree like the other stuff. They aren't as complex and therefore don't need such detailed treatment. The charts for penetrations are available only for DF guns (not small arms), nothing else. This is because the charts are generated from those equations, not some generic system. However, I think Charles is gathering up some stats to post. Not as pretty, but just as usefull Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockler Posted May 21, 1999 Share Posted May 21, 1999 I heard the M2HB could take out a German heavy tank if it was fired directly on top of the turret, I think, but is this an accurate statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 21, 1999 Share Posted May 21, 1999 OK, I decided to go back and change MG ballistics vs. armor to the nth degree. You can see the results at http://www.bigtimesoftware.com/images/mgvsht.jpg . Note that the .50 cal graph goes out to 1000m while the MG42 is to 500m. The .50 caliber MG can really rip a new one through just about any light vehicle, as the German Sd Kfz 251 actually has pretty good armor for a vehicle of its class, and yet there's an awful lot of red on that graph. The M3 HT is vulnerable to the MG 42 out to a maximum of about 260m, though this can literally drop to zero depending on the side angle. While one might conclude that the Americans have a huge advantage here (due to the heavy punch of the .50 caliber in the other graph) keep in mind that the Germans had a heck of a lot more MG42s on the battlefield than the US had .50 cals. Most US infantry MGs were the .30 cal variety, which cannot penetrate the Sd Kfz 251 at any useful range. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PatB_TGN Posted May 21, 1999 Share Posted May 21, 1999 Excellent information and exactly what I was looking for. Many thanks to you for taking the time. -Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameLessOne Posted May 21, 1999 Share Posted May 21, 1999 So, does this mean that, in the game, an american squad with a .50 cal MG would actually open fire against a German SdKfz 251 at 1000 m (assuming LOS)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 22, 1999 Share Posted May 22, 1999 Squads don't use heavy MGs of any kind (a misconception propagated by the game Squad Leader). HMGs are manned by MG crews. But would a US .50cal HMG crew open fire on a Sd Kfz 251 at 1000m? It depends on a lot of factors, including the current orders given to the MG crew. If they've been told to hide, or wait in ambush, then they won't fire. If left to their own devices, then it depends on how the Sd Kfz is pointed. If it's facing the MG crew, then they typically will not fire, as the .50 cal can only penetrate the Sd Kfz 251 out to about 350m from the front. From the side they probably would open fire at 1000m because they can kill the Sd Kfz 251 at 1000m from the side (though only through a small arc). In the general case, when it's a side facing but not a perfect one, the .50 cal MG crew would open fire more around the 750m mark. CM assumes that HMG crews have telescopic sights so this is not a problem. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 SOOO ! We're having HMGs with sights and tripod/bipods eh? That should make them ultra-lethal correct? What with all the spotting, aiming and stability bonuses that should accrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 Fionn, word of advice to either player is stay away from those MGs! Even when they don't take anybody out, they certianly cause units to think twice about what they are doing Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 Word of advice to opponents: Watch out for Fionn's patented 6 HMG defensive positions .. Bring it on dudes! It's good that HMGs are so lethal. I'm sick of games treating them like quick-firing rifles. HMGs literred the ground with bodies and that's how they should work in the game too. Kudos to you all for making them so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 Clever having the mg teams hold thier fire depending on thier aspect towards the enemy tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Maragoudakis Posted May 23, 1999 Share Posted May 23, 1999 Oh Fionn, too many resources in a static defense might not be wise. Ask Sadam Husien. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 24, 1999 Share Posted May 24, 1999 John's got a point there Fionn In the two screenshots up on Inside Mac Games I did a fixed fortification battle. I gave the Germans lots of HMG teams, wooden pillboxes with HMGs, and some squads armed with various weapons including LMGs. A Sherman sneaked behind some houses (out of the firing arc of the 88AT pillbox that was zapping stuff left and right!) and demolished two of the HMG pillboxes. Point is that I fully expected the Germans to waste the US force assaulting it. In fact this happend, but the Germans lost most of what they started out with. Through tank MG fire, tank DF, air attacks, some team weapon support (a couple of .30 cals), the German defences were given a few things to think about NOW, had the German defensive line been further back in the woods, the US force would have had to go in without most of that support. That would have been a mess... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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