Guest Big Time Software Posted August 25, 1999 Share Posted August 25, 1999 OK, the old thread was getting a big long to load. Fionn is making some headway against Martin, but in some ways things aren't going so well. The next 10 turns are going to be crucial... Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 25, 1999 Share Posted August 25, 1999 Fionn, I wasn't thinking of rushing forward like a bull w/ your armour. In fact I was thinking of pushing forward hard w/ some of your HT's and infantry to accomplish exactly what you are worried about, namely clearing the woods and hills on either of your flanks. Sure some of the HT's might get hit by an as yet hidden tank, or a bazooka, or a hidden AT gun. But so what. You lose a little, but you ferret out these pests and can then deal with them accordingly. Plus you accelerate your relief advance to the village which I think will be key to winning this game. In addition, you also avoid plodding along and making it easy for Martin to target you with his artillery. You may also be making it easier for him to redeploy his AT assets to cover the fire lanes which may very well not be covered now as a result of the loss of a number of his tanks. I'm not saying rush forward with everything you have, just that it would seem to be something that should be given some serious consideration, especially on the flanks. Move that infantry and a couple of support HT's on up and see what happens. Might beat the heck out of having an artillery barrage rain down on the them and having them annihilated! (It sounds like you have already found this out perhaps) Anyway, just some thoughts. It's always interesting to see how people play different situations. And even more so, to get to talk to them about it as they do so. Since most of the time you are actually playing the game and you can't really talk to anyone, except for your opponent whom you can't say much to without giving something away, or vice versa. Needless to say it will be interesting to see how this one plays out. Best of luck. Mike D Aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Mike, Ah I get you now.. Well here's where we run into a problem. Quite frankly advancing down a wooded trail in other games is EASY.. In SP if a vehicle gets hit you never block the trail etc etc. In CM you have GOT to clear every inch of that path with infantry before moving a tank along it OR you WILL get the tank or HT killed and it WILL block the road. When the "pushing" code is put in then the loss of one HT on a road won't be so bad but trust me.. Neither Martin or I has EVER succeeded in making an advance down a road trail unless we thoroughly (and I mean thoroughly) and slowly check the woods on either side for infantry.. In that way its just like real life... As for his arty.. Yep, you're right but my gamble is that arty will kill a few HTs here and there as opposed to a single kill from a roadside ambush blocking the road forever. Right now I can't afford to let the roads get blocked so I'm willing to accept casualties to my people to ensure the roads don't get blocked. It's not a nice choice BUT I absolutely assure you that any other course of action would result in brewed up HTs, dead passenger squads and a certainly blocked track. As for his AT assets: My sharpshooter/spotters are my safeguard against that. I know that he only has 5 tanks and I've killed 3 of them. The instant any other is moved I'll see it. Since I see no HTs I must presume that any AT guns he has are immobile and can't be moved.. I'm betting they are on the wooded hill to the north of the map (the one the Shermans are all grouped around). It is very interesting actually for me also.. Martin and I are taunting the hell out of eachother but it's always good to talk to others openly about what's happening. I think you'll find the next 3 turns VERY interesting. They should be up very soon too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Fionn, I see what you mean about clearing the woods. Makes sense and is probably exactly what I would be doing as well. Guess I was thinking at least down in the south that you were already at the edge of the woods, so it might be a good time to make some kind of a move w/ your HT's and some infantry. If you are not there yet maybe dismount your grenadiers from the HT's and "run" one squad (or split off a half squad) at a fairly good pace right up the road to the edge of the woods. Take 1 each of the other two squad and have them 50-100m behind and off to either side in the woods at a slightly slower clip to make a quick clearing of the woods (or as quick as they can move through there on foot). For some heavy fire support to deal w/ anything that is found up ahead follow the main squad up the road w/ a single HT about 25-50m behind and keeping pace w/ the line of the advancing infantry on either side in the woods w/ the stug and remaining HT's following at the same pace starting 25-50m behind that. I know it isn't as easy as this, but I guess I'm not one to have a great deal of patience sometimes. CM will probably break me out of that mold and make me a little more cautious though from the sounds of things! Anyway, I believe it was Patton that time and again said something to the affect that a commander can take some calculated risks and advance to take the enemy by surprise and perhaps gain the initiative in which case the battle might be won all the sooner, Or, he can plod along and be cautious but get embroiled in a nasty slug fest where he might take just as many, and in some cases even more, casualties vs. having acted more aggressively. For now, given the rather strong US forces blocking your relief group and the fact that you are having to move through the woods (which are at a minimum laced with some minor ambushing forces) I think you are doing everything by the book which is probably a really good idea. However, once you get those forces to the edge of those wooded areas and can move ahead w/o fear of getting a road blocked then you will have to think seriously about jumping into some of your HT's and yelling "charge!!!!!!!!!". Mike D Aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Another thing I hadn't really paid much attention to up to this point is that little river/stream sticking down from the north edge of the map. If it's a stream can you get your Puma / HT's across it? Or are you going to have to move your infantry across it to clear the north side of the map??? Will definitely be something to hinder your clearing the northern flank! Mike D aka Mikester Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Well, when I used to play chess competitively my opponents used to often (better than 50% of the time) tell me I was the most aggressive player they'd ever played... I'm certainly not afraid to take casualties if I think its necessary but since I need to keep my relieving force in good shape since I expect to have to assault a fortified enemy-held town with only what I have at hand.. As for your method of clearing the road.. It's pretty much what I do except that if I do run a squad right up the middle it WILL be slaughtered if there are any infantry guarding the road... One thing to also bear in mind that the infantry on either side are working their way through HEAVY WOODS and thus they are going VERY slowly. Anyways, forget the way other games do it and remember what happened in real life in CM, That's the best advice I can give you.. If its a bad idea to do it in real life then CM WILL punish you for doing it which is really a pretty high compliment. It sounds like Patton but I also doubt that he would order infantry mounted on HTs to simply drive down narrow forest trails in which you EXPECT an ambush ... Either way it turned out badly for me as you will see. As for having a bugler sound the charge you should see what one of my HTs does in a couple of minutes LOL> I call it my "Ride O' Death" . Bazookas to the right of them, bazookas to the left, bazookas to the rear and bazookas to the front. Tanks to the right and tanks to the rear. Infantry to the front and infantry to the left.. Regardless the plucky SPW 251/1 advances . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Fionn, I haven't been able to figure out exactly where your HMG42's are in the town, but I've been suprised that they haven't been more effective... I would have thought they would have been perfect for hitting the Yanks as they came in to the town... Have they been supressed by rifle/arty fire? Or have I just gotten the wrong impression about them from playing a few to many games of Close Combat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 "As for your method of clearing the road.. It's pretty much what I do except that if I do run a squad right up the middle it WILL be slaughtered if there are any infantry guarding the road..." What about splitting the point squad into two half squads. Have one bound forward say 10-20m w/ the other one covering. 1st half squad then stops and assumes fire positions and second half squad then move past them and stops 10-20m ahead and so on. I assume CM's orders structure allows something along these lines??? Maybe not? Maybe it should? "One thing to also bear in mind that the infantry on either side are working their way through HEAVY WOODS and thus they are going VERY slowly." Yes, and I don't imagine the fact that there is snow on the ground in those woods is helping to speed things up any either. "Anyways, forget the way other games do it and remember what happened in real life in CM, That's the best advice I can give you.. If its a bad idea to do it in real life then CM WILL punish you for doing it which is really a pretty high compliment. This is what is going to make CM oh so cool to play. I absolutely can't wait to get a hold of this game. Let's see, between having 3+ weeks vacation, taking some sick leave here and there, a supposed death or two in the family, etc. I should be able to sit home and play for over about a month and a half straight! I'd better go and start stocking up on the beer and brats now! At least the beer, you can never have enough of that around now can you? I wonder how well I'll be able to play the game if I get plastered??? Probably have about the same result as if I were really in command and got plastered before a battle. I.e. not a very good idea I would imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I wonder how well I'll be able to play the game if I get plastered???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey, if I can code this thing after a couple of brews, you can surely play it in the same state. Whoops! Looks like a buggy program coming to a computer near you... Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Mike, I split my lead squads and have them advance ahead of my main body (two squads + 1 HQ unit)... Basically the 2 half-squads lead by about 20 or so metres. (IN heavy woods the maximum visible range is often only 20 to 25 metres which gives you an idea why I have to sweep it really thoroughly before I can push vehicles through). As for snow.. Yup, you're right.. I haven't played much on snow before. I think I've played one game on snow... Anyways, I hadn't realised how much it would slow me down. I'm unhappy with it since it forces me to stick to roads which makes Martin's job much easier. Still, with a bit of luck this'll all come off. I predict it's going to be a very bloody battle though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhet Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Anyways, I hadn't realised how much it would slow me down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Charles, it appears that the snow in this battle is wet and is covering saturated or soft soil. Is there another type of snow where the ground has frozen hard and the snow is dry? This would allow for winter battles where movement was hindered less. This type of terrain will be necessary for CM2 the gates of Moscow Seriously I would imagine that the hard frozen ground would eliminate "bogged down" situations but it would greatly hinder wheeled traffic (less traction or skidding). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hey, if I can code this thing after a couple of brews, you can surely play it in the same state.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LOL Message from the OKW... Major Fionn von Kelly, We are pleased with your early successes...continue the advance to relieve the garrison. The garrison has 15 cases of Becks with your name on them. Do not let them fall into enemy hands. We have determined from your battle reports that an Iron Cross is in order for your fearless StuG III crew! Good Luck, Generalfeldmarschall Schmidt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Rhet - CM has three levels of snow. Fionn & Martin are playing with the intermediate level. The light snow level doesn't cause much bogging down for tracked vehicles. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Ben, Well one MG is guarding the north where there's been no action and the other is in the south but was redeployed since I only saw 1 platoon down there but saw an entire company coming in from the river. As it redeployed it was hit by arty etc and got hurt bad. That's why you haven't seen much of them.. Oh BTW the MG team in the south panicked since it was hit so hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatherof4 Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Fionn, I was wondering how long it takes you to play a turn now? (e.g. 30 min watching the movies, 10 min planning, 10 min making adjustments to orders, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Time taken eh Well it takes me about ten minutes to watch most turns since I usually check each hotspot individually e.g. Kampfgruppe Eberbach, von Kelly, Carius, Student's North, Student's south etc.. Planning never takes long. I usually make snap decisions since I have an overall plan which means I have the generalities all worked out.. At the moment I'm spending a long time on the town since everything's falling apart there basically 10 minutes to watch movies, 1 minute to consider what they mean and then maybe 20 or 30 minutes to plot everything... I'm doing a lot of fine-plotting in the village so as to try and ensure that I evade LOS etc so that's taking a while but usually it doesn't work out as I plan :-( It gets pretty intense sometimes.. The most intense thing of all are the movies... You'll notice I took lots of shots every time I killed a tank etc.. That's because when you SEE it happening in 3D it really strikes home much more than when you see it on a 2d top-down map (at least that's how it is for me anyways). I get MUCH more immersed in CM than I do in other wargames since I think the 3D view draws you in.. And after all, what separates a good from a great game is whether or not it can draw you in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 One thing I forgot is that since I'm doing AARs etc I'm just seeing what I need, making the orders and emailing off the turn.. Once that's done I'll generally sit down, watch the movies, take 10 to 20 screenshots , write the AARs, have a look at the movies again... I've even been reviewing the old movies from turns 1 to 7 today to see if there are any positions which were once spotted but aren't spotted anymore... When the turns can be spliced together to create a full length movie it'll be awesome. It'll be like having your very own 60 minute combat film whenever you want. I'm looking forward to that a lot. I think it'd be cool to watch tourney games on your computer by downloading the movie of the game don't you know? Or imagine watching two top CM players battle eachother in a tournament game.. That's gotta be a cool addition eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Talley Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Fionn, I noticed on one of your turns that a unit panicked while under artillery fire and left a destroyed building. Is it common for units to panic while under artillery fire and leave good cover(building) to move into poor cover (open ground)? Or did the unit leave the cover because the building was destroyed? Also can you gather any other additional info from prisoners other than quality? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Ken, No it isn't common at all but what happened there was unusual actually AND my fault See I had just faked a sham withdrawal with the unit running out the back of the house and then hitting the dirt on an OPEN ROAD (I wasn't thinking straight obviously when I made that decision)... When the arty hit the infantry in the open it caused them to panic and they ran into the house.. JUST as they entered the house artillery hit them again. Now, having lost 3 men in about 3 seconds and being totally panicked they just ran for the nearest cover (the trees) since it was about 1.5 times as far to run to the nearest house. So, certainly not a smart thing to do BUT one must remember that these guys are panicked after all . So the basic thing is that they were panicked when in the open, ran into the building and as soon as they entered it it blew up around them and so then they just went completely loopy . As for prisoners. Nope. It's quality, type of unit and weaponry.. BUT capturing that rifle squad was VERY important since now I know that none of his rifle squads have bazookas. In effect that means that if I can suppress his bazooka teams (and I'm pretty sure I'm going to have killed about 5 bazooka teams by turn 11) my tanks and HTs are perfectly safe which will really help me when I attack the town . Given the scale of CM (1 minute turns) there's no way I'd be able to conduct a proper interrogation of the prisoners during the 30 or 60 minutes of a battle so I think this is pretty realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 I didn't realize there were any US rifle squads that had Bazooka's in them... Which ones do? I'm looking forward to studying all of the TO&E's for the various infantry units... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Ben, I don't remember any off-hand but to maintain FOW I didn't look at the TO&E of the 1945 pattern US infantry squad and since I haven't played a game using the 1945 pattern infantry squad I had no idea if they did or didn't have bazookas.. And, as in real war, I wasn't about to presume they didn't until I had a little proof one way or the other. The TO&Es are good and accurate. One of my biggest problems is that each US infantry squad has 12 men whereas each of mine has 8, 9 or 10 men.... Panzergrenadier squads have 8 men, Volksgrenadier squads have 9 while Fallschirmjaeger squads have 10.. Since my main strength is in the Panzergrenadiers which have only 8 men it can be seen that each man shot in one of my squads results in a much larger proportional loss of firepower. E.g if I lose 4 men I lost half of my men while if the US loses 4 he still has 8 men left in his squad.. Whilst this is compensated for to some degree by the fact that the guys try to keep the best weapons with them at all times it does mean that I can't afford to trade casualties with the US on a 1 for 1 basis EVEN if I had exactly as many squads as he does. I reckon that since he has about a battalion of infantry I'm outnumbered about 1.5 to one in infantry squads .. Multiply that by another 1.5 to one since each squad has an extra 4 men in it compared to me and you can see that if my assumptions are right I need to kill roughly 2.5 Americans for every man I lose. Given that I'm attacking him that ought to be pretty tough to do since city fighting is notorious for 1 to 1 exchange rates insofar as fancy manouevres etc are impossible its a simple grinding attrition-style warfare. I do have a plan to overcome that but since so many things can change in a short time in CM I'll keep my cards close to my chest until it's time to act on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Fionn, Just read turn 8. Is there any reason why you didn't call down any arty on the infantry to the south of the town? Now, I know you said you wanted to give Martin's troops a hammering when you were going to try and take the town back, but from your screen shot, it looks like Martin's forces down there were pretty bunched up and in woods (airbursts). Or was this just a trick of the perspective and the scaling of the troops? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Ben, You saw right. The troops were in scattered woods and quite well-concentrated. I believe I could have killed or incapacitated most of the platoon with a good arty strike BUT.... 1. It's only a platoon. 2. NO treebursts since scattered trees are too scattered for good treeburst odds. 3. They might assault at any time and I'd miss them totally then. 4. If I kill a platoon now it has NO shock effect 15 turns from now when I attack the town. 5. It does NOT reduce any defensive positions. So, overall I want to wait to fire arty until I have a company-sized concentration. Eventually I saved my shots and just this turn I'm about to drop arty on two US platoons sitting in the open . I'm saving my 210mm rockets to hit his first line of occupied houses in the town since 210mm rockets should absolutely destroy houses and wipe out entire squads as well as shocking and panicking lots of second-line of resistance troops. I plan to drop ALL of my saved arty into the centre of the town the turn I launch my attack. That way I: 1. Get some shock effect. 2. Disrupt his defences by creating gaping holes in them (if I kill a platoon now he might have 5 or 6 more left and can easily defend the town with 6 platoons.. If he HAS them all set up but suddenly loses his entire central platoon to arty then I have a chance). 3. Losing his men, having houses set on fire or blasted to rubble and having my infantry advance only seconds after the barrage will shock him. If he attempts to redeploy to fill the gaps in his front I'll have a field day shooting the redeploying troops (just like he has had with me). Those are my basic reasons.. The last reason is that you never know what will happen in the game. maybe another US battalion will appear on the side of the map and that saved 210mm rocket barrage might wipe out an entire battalion . I can dream Attacking a town without arty support is suicide.. I only have enough arty for 1 turn of firing.. although my 105s might have enough shells to fire for 2 minutes... Thus I really only have 1 shot with my arty. I can't put a 4 minute blind barrage on some clearing like Martin could.. He fired more ammunition in that single barrage than I have available to all my artillery units .. I just hate the American materielschlecht Steve set this up well since, just like the Germans in the war, I'm waiting and waiting and waiting to see a really juicy target. once that shows up I will definitely use my arty but since I only have 1 minute's worth of arty I'm saving until I see an irresistible target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 CM doesn't include bazookas directly in US squads. Bazookas were not part of the official squad TO&E. However, rifle companies had bazookas on their TO&E and virtually all US units had lots of bazookas lying around. You could hardly walk to the latrine without tripping over a pile of bazookas. So most US formations will have plenty of two-man bazooka teams available, just not literally part of a rifle squad. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 26, 1999 Share Posted August 26, 1999 Well, it's easier to suppress 2 or 3 distinct bazooka teams than it is to suppress 3 infantry squads + a panzerfaust team .. Anyway, don't go raining on my parade Charles .. I was starting to get my confidence back after the horrible artillery fire from the Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted August 27, 1999 Share Posted August 27, 1999 Test ------------------ ________________________________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Email: fionnk@thegamers.net Web Site: http://www.thegamers.net Affiliate Member of theiEntertainment Network Web Site: http://www.ientertainmentnetwork.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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