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Flock

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Posts posted by Flock

    StuGs and the price of them in QB

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted · Edited by Flock

    I am far from being a puritan with how CMBN or any of the other titles are played. I have been known to play with the rarity turned off so I can satisfy my desire to roll around with King Tigers. I want everybody to have a good time playing the game.

    What attracted me to Combat Mission was the great way it represented the WWII battle field and it's armies in a realistic, balanced  and playable way. Overall I think they got it right, but not everywhere the StuGIII price always seemed odd which is why I responded to this thread in the first place.

    I have no wish to  limit anyones enjoyment the game and I feel this must also be  Battle Fronts desire. To say that that if I want to play games with an historical context I should limit myself to the ready made scenarios its a bit strong. Besides once you have played a scenario the second time it is played you already know far too much about the enemy. Battlefront realised this and provided us with a means of generating our own scenarios whilst maintaining some historical context, due in no small part, by the weighting of the pricing system.The example of the PzII Luchs mentioned by Bulletpoint, demonstrates (to mind at least) that there is no confusion on the part of Battle Front and that Economical/production factors have been used in the pricing system. The PzII represented in CMBN is one of the rarest vehicles used by the Germans in WWII (production run of 100 from 42-44) and most of them were sent east. The USA produced thousands of Starts/ M8's M4's etc' etc'.

    If any body wants to play 'what if the Germans had lots of King tigers or whatever' type scenarios thats absolutely fine and needs no justification, just don't wreck the point system that provides a realistic balanced and playable compromise.  Vanir Ausf B's posting of the results list from 'Blitz' earlier in this thread indicates a well balanced gameplay, with the Germans giving as good as they get.

    All those different German AFV's are indeed fascinating and add greatly to the appeal of the German Army to the war gamer  and modeller alike, but in reality were a nightmare for production and for the logistics of the army in the field.

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    StuGs and the price of them in QB

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted · Edited by Flock

    Ok, I concede that my StuGIII value of 200pts is low and 220-230 is nearer the mark. However, I still don't see the M4 as being too cheap. Consider Sgt Joch's post on this thread

    On 7/1/2021 at 3:13 PM, Sgt Joch said:

    pricing is not just a function of the inherent qualities of the AFV, but it’s availability as well. Allied units pretty much always had AFVs available and at full strength while German units had limited availability and even armour formations were rarely at full strength.

    All U.S. infantry divisions in NWE 44-45 had a Tank battalion attached and usually had more tanks than a German Panzer divisions. German infantry divisions often had zero AFVs in support or at much a Stug unit. For example, the German 7th Army total armour strength in the initial phase of the Battle of the Bulge was 15 stugs.

    the war economies of the different countries has been worked into the pricing schemes we have no control over this just as the soldiers of 44/45 had none, but as they did we also feel the effect of it at the front. This factor is a large part of setting the historical context for a QB. I would argue that flattening the values of M4 v Mk IV would remove a large slice of historical context. Put it this way, even if for some reason Germany could have made M4's under licence, with Germany supplying all the resources, they still could have not have made them as cheaply as the USA. This would have meant that a German M4 would have cost more points than an American M4. The QB points are already biased in favour the Germans despite the  greater cost for MkIV vis a vis the M4. Read once more Sgt Jochs post and give a little thought to the 7th Armies 15 StuGs. 

    The list of of potential options, kindly posted by Larsen, certainly displays the Stug III's overpricing. Having said that it makes no allowance for rarity value which would make it look like this:-

    5xStuGIII                  0pts

    6xMkIV                     0pts

    4xPanther                0pts

    4xJgdPzIV         3864pts

    4xJgdPzIV70     9716pts

    3xKing Tiger      8463pts

    4x Tiger              4320pts

     I reckon that will exceed most QB rarity  allowances. If you don't use rarity points go for it, but forget about historical context.

     

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    StuGs and the price of them in QB

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted · Edited by Flock

    I don't quite understand the desire to make things even. Have we been so discontented with QB's so far, I know I haven't.

    I have recently played the Germans in 14 or 15 PBEM QB's against a friend of mine, it is hard but, thats the fun/challenge and so far the games have gone mostly my way. When I played as the Americans I also found it a challenge/fun to play. In consequence of this I think the  game is balanced ( apart from the Stug enigma).  It could of course mean that my friend and I are balanced!

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    StuGs and the price of them in QB

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted

    I agree with Larsen that it would be great to hear from Steve. I disagree with Larsen that there is no historical context to QB's because, 1) the environment, the map will be based around the terrain of the campaign from June -September, 2) more importantly the fact that the availability is factored in  to the pricing gives us something of the feel of the campaign. I'am personally quite happy about this as it reflects true cost of  things and it's impact at the front. As I say this must be biased in favour of the Germans.

    And, just maybe we might indeed get a clearer view of why the StuGIII is so  expensive!

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    StuGs and the price of them in QB

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted · Edited by Flock

    Two things is clear from this thread, that StuGIII's are too expensive and that no one seems to no by what mechanism AFV points values are arrived at.  We could really do with someone 'in the know' telling us. Until such time I speculate that as well as armour, firepower, mobility etc' that the ability of the country's economy to manufacture/supply the equipment also may be factored in the the points value. I hear you say no,no, that is the rarity value and indeed that has a bearing, but hear me out.

    It cost Germany far more to produce a PzIV than it did the USA to make an M4 and in consequence they made considerably more, I believe something like 40,000 compared with less than 9,000. So if this is factored into the purchase points it is no wonder that all allied equipment is generally cheaper. Why is an American 6X6 truck cheaper (only 3 pts I grant you but nonetheless) than an Opel Blitz with 2 wheel drive? This may also go some way to explain why a firefly is still relatively cheap at 240 pts  despite the increase in firepower and why straffing planes are only 30pts. after all allied pilots were encouraged to shot up anything on their way home from bomber escort . I do feel that if this is the case, then the points system is biased in favour of the Germans for the sake of balance/playability. If this were not so then all German players would be subject considerably more Artillery bombardment, plane activity (given clear weather), to name but two things off the top of my head. No one would enjoy playing the Germans under these conditions.

    Back to rarity values, these will, of course , reflect the production figures but, also availability at the front due to, breakdowns, interdiction, fuel, etc'etc'.

    However, all this still does not answer the question why is a StuGIII so expensive when they were the most common German big gun AFV type. Also think I the term 'mediocre' could be replaced with ad hoc, as StuGIII's killed more enemy tanks than any other German AFV so they were obviously efficient tank killers.

    One more point, StuGIII, PzIV and PzV were the only standard German 'Tanks' in this period of the war, everything else can only really be classed as limited production runs.

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    StuGs and the price of them in QB

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted · Edited by Flock

    As a matter of interest the RL cost in 1944  was:  StuGIII 82,500 RM;  PzIV 103,462RM;  PzV 117,00RM.

    Quite a large difference between the StuGIII and the PzIV and not so much between the PzIV and PzV.

    Production numbers were as follows: StuGIII 9,235 all types;  PzIV 8,519 all types (includes AA variants etc'); PzV 6,674 all type

     

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    StuGs and the price of them in QB

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted

    I couldn't agree more.  I have frequent QB PBEM games and I believe I have purchased a Stug III once. You are just much better off with a mkIV as you get  a traversing turret with lots more ammo. I have always thought it odd that the Stug is so expensive, in the real world they were built because they were a cheaper alternative to a tank or have I been reading the wrong books?

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    U.S. 37mm Antitank guns

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted · Edited by Flock

    Thats what I thought. I am also fairly sure that my opponent wouldn't have a mod as he does not like messing with the files.

    However, the hits as shown are all bright and shiny whereas, most hits that I can find in the  game I am currently playing are black. If it is round, I guess, it's a penetration and if it's sort of spread it's a bounce.

    I have two types of appearances available in the Quick battle forces selector, they are 'Standard and Mixed cammo''. Is 'Mixed cammo'' a  'comes with the game' appearance, or have I acquired it with a  downloaded scenario. I have CMBN Big bundle and have not downloaded any 'stand alone' mods.

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    U.S. 37mm Antitank guns

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted

    As far as I know I have no decal mods and can usually see penetrations. If my PBEM enemy has such a mod and I haven't, would I see it?

    Having had a close look I have to say I cannot see penetrations on any of the vehicles in that battle, in the latest fight, against the same enemy, I can see all the penetrations.

    So maybe you are right Bulletpoint.

     

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    U.S. 37mm Antitank guns

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted · Edited by Flock

    I must correct my previous statement that I had lost 6 tanks, 1 was still crewed merely having had all its weapon systems knocked out following the penetration of the gun mantlet.

    In the end Combat Mission cannot be 100% accurate so we must accept that war is full of surprises and go on to fight another day having learnt a valuable lesson, Always bring along the Tigers!

     

    1

    U.S. 37mm Antitank guns

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted · Edited by Flock

    yep, the canister rounds are terrible to be on the receiving end of.

    I just did not expect a knock out blow through the mantlet at 460+mtrs. Sure enough, the MkIV is not the 'toughest nuts' but none the less!

    I have lost 6 MkIV's, 2 at less than 100mtrs ( I can go along with that ) 2 have been dismounted ( again I can go along with that after repeated hits and lots of spalling armour)

    and two at over 400 mtrs 1 through the mantlet and 1 through the turret front. There have been lots of penetrations at 400 mtrs+

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    U.S. 37mm Antitank guns

    in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy

    Posted

    I am currently half way through a PBEM CMBN quick battle with a friend, I am the Germans and he is the Americans, and we are both shock at the ability of the U.S. 37mm AT guns in the Stuart Tanks to knock out MkIV's at ranges over 400 mtrs. Indeed there ability to penetrate the gun mantlet at these ranges. I could understand the 37mm's being affective against side armour or at very close range but against frontal armour  at 400+ mtrs?!

    It also seems strange given that in a previous battle my German 50mm paks rounds bounced of early model Shermans at less than 200mtrs. Ok I didn't expect them to be devastating but expected some damage.

    Has anyone else come across this?

    Perhaps I am underestimating the power of these weapons and I should start to fear M8 armoured cars.

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