MonwarH

Yeah, Michener agrees he is formulaic. But what the heck, he can tell a story, and I love the loads of history that come as a bonus!

Heh heh. Dyson sphere. I assume you have Mr. Hamilton's works? Or Mr. Banks for that matter!

I have been reading some of his books... Chesapeake most recently, Carribean a while ago... and they are so good. Just the type the lazy traveler in me likes... depicting a place, its history, its geography, its people... and mostly ITS PEOPLE... because I can not hope to make so many friends. A writer just before my time, and also a writer of the 60s, 70s and 80s. Wondeful books, wide scopes, what more can you ask for? And by the way, I was reading this quite wonderful Michener interview here, and then made this post.

The topic surely has gotten complex! I guess societal growth occurs at different levels. It might not be a nice, gentle curve. Almost like Malcolm Gladwell's 'The Tipping Point'. At certain points growth might start more rapidly or might slow down, actually. Either way, there is a huge economic developmental difference between most countries in the Islamic World and most countries in the West. On the Americans not utilizing their discoveries... I think they are... it is just that they have changed a lot as a society... they are the society where these new discoveries tend to get most experiemented upon, right? So they may have developed a certain fatigue... there might also be other socio-economic factors we don't have an inkling about!

Michael, hmm... monwar or monwar1982. I am not sure, really... LOL, though I have some great memories of discussing with the likes of JasonC, Andreas, Scott, Matt, Dandelion... I have even forgotten most of the names. I was mostly a lurker though!

costard, Well put. You'd probably agree with me that the majority of the Muslim World want to have better material standards of living. That said, 1) they can't follow the exact path the West did (many time and variable shifts, let's not digress and 2) (which is a corollary to 1) Islamic 'peculiarities' (not in a derogatory sense). I have a suspicion that the Islamic religion, at least in its current from, broadly, might affect that evolution dramatically. I can be more specific, but I'm afraid I will be inaccurate and don't want to derail the discussion. However, this much I can say - a comparative analysis of the Islamic and Christian ('Western Christian') faiths would show clear differences between the evolution of the two faiths. The divergence is pretty clear from the second half of the millenium. More exploration on this later. But for now, thanks! Michael, I am actually an older member, so old that I have forgotten my password and probably do not use that old email address any more even. I see that you remain as prolific as you were. Oh, and sorry for my numerous spelling and grammatical mistakes. Tend to care less... fact. Your solution reminds of... corporate restructurings, of all things. I work in one pretty large one, and they kind of follow your reasoning. From my humble perspective, the biggest challenge is to get people to forget their past grudges... removing the points of disparity. How do you pull that off without removing the more useful aspects of the past? Is a bit of nihilism required?

Was reading through the Afghanistan post here. It quoted the recent Islamic demographic data... 23% of the world population being Muslim and all that. That kind of stirred me. I read about it in the news too and found it... of little use. I am 26 and come from a Muslim-majority country (Bangladesh). I live in the capital (Dhaka), in a pretty conservative, Islamic family. I myself am an agnostic... in the sense that I am not sure what to 'believe', but am pretty well acquainted with Islamic culture. Most of what the Taleban does, is thoroughly abhorrent to my family. Let me give you an example. My sister is preparing to marry her boyfriend... who comes from a richer business family (religious-minded... but... umm, how to explain this... the women cover themselves, but have very high social mobility)... and there was talk about my sister not having to work. My parents kind of had an outburst at that... how the hell come an educated woman not work?! That was pretty impressive... I mean the absolute standards my parents hold on that matter... these are religious and conservative Muslims... my parents, and keep in mind that they never forced my sister to take up the hijab (the 'head-scarf', LOL). Now, you can pick the above 'story' apart in seconds... it is just one stance among many. Conservative Salafis will consider my family 'deviant', ultra-liberal Westerners might as well snigger at that story ('heh'!). But that's not the point I am trying to make. What I am trying to tell... wondering around with my words as I tend to do... is that what my family is arguing for is ABSOLUTELY unacceptable to the Taleban. I should know. My cousin (when she was in London) married an Afghan refugee family's son whose home is in Peshawar. They didn't allow the marriage ceremony to be filmed (the most conservative streams of Islam, in this case, Deobandism, take literally the injunction against painting, hence the complete refusal to allow themselves to be photographed). That is an extreme oddity in Bangladesh, and most disappointing for my uncle's family. So now, the point becomes pretty obvious, and I am saying nothing new - there are millions of shades even within Islam. My father, say, is simultaneously an orthodox Sunni Islam and a Sufi (of the Qadiriyah Tarika, most probably). He is non-violent to the extent of not killing the mosquitoes that bite him at winter! I was reading Andrew Sullivan's 'The Daily Dish' the other day, and there was one post where he pointed out that the struggle now taking place in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia... these are 'their' struggle. I kind of have a same view. It is a 'working out' process. Let me give you another example. Bangladesh was named 'East Pakistan' till 1971, and then it got fed up with the West Pakistanis and had a Liberation War. I was watching a video... a docu-video, about the situation before the Liberation War. It struck me how many woman in Dhaka wore the hijab in those days... from the random footage. ZERO. Now-a-days, the percentage has gone up to ~30%. Indeed, there is increased religious observance (Egypt also comes to mind). This is a critical point in a nation's juncture. I have a pet theory that as education levels improve, religious observance tends to increase. This, with other 'externalities', can make a nation go Pakistan's way, or, say Malaysia's way. Bangladesh is closer to the Malaysian model. Of couse the country has its share of extreme followers of Islam. But they tend not to be able to exert an impact on wider society. They do try violent tactics, but as the whole of society is very strongly opposed to such disruptions, including, criticially, the vast, religious Muslim segment... it FAILS, miserably. Even the most fanatic among them learns that lesson (and then some act on it, and some don't... just like Herodotus said). I find some of the Western opinions to be incredibly generalizing (and I am sure we 'Easterners' make similar outrageous generalizations). That said, I find some opinions to be well-informed. Of course I can not totally blame the West (and I hate that generalizing term) for not being able to grasp the complexities of the broadly Eastern and narrowly Islamic societies as a whole. I myself have great difficulty doing that... and wonderment... and amazement. There are unique variables in every society... every 'civilization', every species (Jared Diamonds' books come to mind). What seems fundamental differences between Western civlization is the snowballing of trivial differences (from 'courtly love' to the 'sexual revolution'). Even within these respective categories, there are HUGE differences between Western and Eastern societies. Enough of me rambling. What's the conclusion to be reached here? LOL. Not much. I just felt like presenting a perspective. That said, I prefer a more sympathetic view of geopolitics and broad human trends. Even with everything happening, not much has shifted... I am sure I am indecipherable here. Don't try to decipher... just consider most of these, broadly, to be 'salts of the earth'!