rickusn

Well heres some more thanks to John at Military Research Services. Hes been incredibly patient and helpful on a number of issues for me. This just being the latest. Three (T/O&E 7-25) Armored Infantry Battalions (15 Sep 1943 including Change 1 dated 9 Sep 1944): "(T/O&E 7-26) Armored Infantry Battalion Hq & Hq Company: 3 medium tanks (105mm howitzer) in assault gun platoon (note: these tanks replaced three M8 75mm howitzer motor carriages in Change 5 dated 9 Sep 1944 to this T/O&E)" So this is how we actually and eventually get to 195 medium tanks in the so-called "light" armored tank divisions. 9 companies of 17 M4(76mm) and 1 M4(105mm) in three battalions = 162 Three Battalion HQ: 2 M4(76mm) & Battalion HQ Co, assault gun platoon 3 M4(105mm)= 15 Total Tank battalions 177 9 M4(76mm) in the fwd obs sect of the three artillery battalions 1943 Total 186 (168 M4(76mm) and 18 M4(105mm) Added in(as shown above) 1944 9 M4(105mm) in the assault gun platoon of the three armored infantry battalions. Total 195 168 M4(76mm) and 27 M4(105mm) Johns got alot of free stuffie T0 & Es: http://www.militaryresearch.org/freebies.htm#Army%20WWII This is how I happened across the M4(105mm) tanks in the armored tank battalions and then he clarified the situation for me. I had been lead to believe that the M8(75mm) had been replaced by M7(105mm) guns. Not so. Cripes how can something this simple have taken me so longgggggggg to figure out? LOL

This TO&E found here list a 105mm unit assigned to each company already in 1943. http://books.google.com/books?id=NLyC79TnGXwC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=%22medium+tank+company+to%26E+1943'&source=bl&ots=pQztBQPdUQ&sig=uroc2ne_xg3K15A7-OFR6boCpcM&hl=en&ei=o1SNSdzhMJC8MqLNyJ8L&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA38,M1 And to be fair so did Forty's book but it also stated that the company only had 17 tanks. As do the other sources Ive consulted except the above. Only later adding a 105mm unit to the company. Confusing!!!! So it must have been an additional one added to each of nine companies bringing the total from 186 to 195. And the table he produces is dated T/O 17 of 16 June 1945. And indeed the armor lineage resource I linked earlier state that 277 tanks were assigned to an armor division 195medium/77 light=272 at the end of the war. So a tank company actually had 18 tanks with one a 105mm job in 1943. 1943: 9 x 18= 162 In medium tank companies/one 105mm unit 3 x 5= 15 In tank battlion HQ companies assault gun platoon. 3 x 3 = 9 IN the three forward observers sections of the three artillery battalions. TOTAL= 186 1945: 9 x 19 = 171 In medium tank companies/two 105mm units. 3 x 5 = 15I n tank battlion HQ companies assault gun platoon. 3x3= 9 In the three forward observers sections of the three artillery battalions. TOTAL= 195 And as the 1945 TO & E states their were 27 105mm units: 9 x 2 = 18 In medium tank companies. 3 x 3= 9 In tank battlion HQ companies assault gun platoon. Total 27 Make sense?

Thanks for that in info. I did indeed miss the nine tanks in the three forward observers sections of the three artillery battalions. And indeed in the 1944 TO & E which I mentoned but inadvertantly forgot to link does show 6 105mm units in each battalion as you mention 3 in the battalion HQ company as I mentioned previously and the recent addition ie the 1944 TOE one each in the nine medium tank companies which I also mentioned previously. http://www.militaryresearch.org/17-25%2018Nov44.pdf So Im still missing nine. But that was quite helpful. I appreciate your sharing that info. ick

I did just cme across this: http://books.google.com/books?id=fQ7UcdtVp9UC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=%22168+mediums%22&source=bl&ots=COjEDOPQCt&sig=uglufGCw6drPtZs6kWXvx_R4LsY&hl=en&ei=wvKMSYSxCZDWMYHg0JUL&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result "The new division had seventy-seven light tanks and 168 mediums. The armored regiment and infantry regiment headquarters Table 2 1943 Armored Division" Which verifys my count but confuses the issue further.

I repeatedly find references to 186 medium tanks but in the TO & E I am only able to count 168: 9 companies in three battallion 17 tanks each=153 In battalion HQ and HQ Coy another 5 for each battalion = 15 Total 168 Where are the othre 18? I tried CMH among other supposed experts and came up empty. Heres some of the stuff Ive sent as background: From George Forty's US Army handbook: "T/O17 and allied tables from15 Septemeber 1943" Which besides the battalion TOE also has the other components of the armored divisions TOE.'s none of which show further medium tank units. I alos have this TOE of the 1944 tank battalion which shows the same numbers with the exception(noted in Forty's book) of nine 105mm M4 tanks being added one to each of nine tank companies not assigned in 1943. Plus numerous other references which I am recollating but also this from here.: http://www.history.army.mil/books/Lineage/arcav/arcav.htm "The 1943 division lost about one-third of its tanks, ending up with 263." So by simple substraction: Which 263 minus 77 light tanks = 186 Later when discussing the 1948 reorganization it states that at the end of the war 272 medium tanks were assigned-77 light tanks=195 also mentioned in Forty's book. This table might be helpful. Could you provide it?: http://www.history.army.mil/documents/eto-ob/etoob-toc.htm F. Table - Organization and Strength -- Armored Division Another reference: http://books.google.com/books?id=AUZdQaUesoMC&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=%22186+medium+tanks%22&source=bl&ots=FX-ntCiIvl&sig=e40isNtsyFVoqH63Cx6rI_ddufY&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result "US ARMORED DIVISION, SEP 1943 men, 186 medium tanks, 77 light tanks, 54 self-propelled howitzers" another: http://books.google.com/books?id=apsRidpFYMsC&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=%22186+medium+tanks%22&source=bl&ots=iZBIYKjf97&sig=oD7d8FZm-00kbrR4ixHTXMMdI4g&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result "Its total establishment came to 10900 troops, 186 medium tanks, 77 light tanks, and 54 self-propelled 105-millimeter howitzers" http://books.google.com/books?id=LwsSRrIHIY8C&pg=RA1-PA176&lpg=RA1-PA176&dq=%22186+medium+tanks%22&source=bl&ots=_8Ss4nxKuE&sig=1RN6Bt7cqRHMaGow4iXbwLXctoE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result "The other US armored forces for Normandy were organized as "light" armored divisions with 10937 troopers, 186 medium tanks, and 77 light tanks Another: http://www.11tharmoreddivision.com/history/div_hq.html "186 Medium Tanks" and: "10937 men, 186 medium tanks and 77 light tanks.23 The reorganization's effect made the armored division a more effective member of the combined arms team," and: "1943 Armoured Div 186 medium Tanks, 77 Light Tanks, 501 half Tracks & 54 Sp 105s, 17 SP 75s Armoured cars 54 " Hope you can help me Im abit perplexed and confused. Rick Again I ask what am I missing or can I just not count. Thanks for all yours time and any info, thoughts or direction. Rick