Drusus
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Posts posted by Drusus
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You propably know this already, but the game should run just fine by exporting the library path and then running ./SpaceVikings in the bin directory.
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I know that the distance is taken into account when calculating if a shot will penetrate. This is propably done through calculating the velocity of the projectile. I don't have a clue if the muzzle velocity has an effect. Working, so no game here. But it is easy enough to test:Originally posted by Type98:The second question was related to how the xml files read in regard to the gun physical object and the AP projectile physical object. As only penetration values where listed under the projectile xml file and no velocity values, this could be taken as that the projectile can potentially penetrate to its maximum value even at speed=0. The gun has speed values, hinting that projectiles fired from this gun gets this velocity.
So if you want to modify the penetration of the AP projectile, do you modify just the velocity of the gun or the penetration value of the AP projectile ? In other words, what is the real penetration value of an AP projectile ?
1. Modify the values.
2. Start your own server.
3. Play at your own server. The easiest way to test penetration effects is to fire at your teammates. Bots, hopefully. You can check in game what is happening through the tactical map. Also a great way to learn where the components are.
4. Quit & kill your server process.
5. Read the log files. See how your modifications changed the penetration.
6. Goto 1.
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This happens easily when you have a wheel blown off. You press forward and backward to make it a bit harder for your enemy to hit, but actually you are also turning, many times the turns are 90+ degrees.
But I have also had sometimes a situation where the gun just wont fire. This is with 120mm. Sometimes it is because of out of ammo, but sometimes I can't figure out why I can't fire.
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It would be really great to only show hit graphics when you hit. This would make it a bit easier weapon to use when you have a ping of 100+ ms. Now it is really hard to see if you did actually hit.
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I also have a feeling that the mortar shells are a bit weaker due to the patch. This is because most of the damage is done via fragmentation. Now, because the angle modifier was changed, this means that the fragments are a bit less likely to penetrate.
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Ok, I can make 76mm feel much better if I turn a flag called "overpenetrates" to True. I thought that it had something to do with overpenetration, ie the shot going through the target without doing damage. How foolish, ofcourse it means that the penetration carries over to the next object inside the vehicle, "penetrates over the engine".
This is turned on by default for the 120mm AP, so once again I was telling you something not true...The 0.942 feels much better. Now if only the AI ATGMs were fixed. There is no way to tell how much I hat the situation where I drive over a crest of a hill, and I know there is a AI controlled ATGM unit. So, I managed to close in with him, should be easy to take him out with my 20mm now. WRONG! The moment I come into the view of the AI he launches the deadly accurate missile. Faster than a human can react in many situations. In human control the missiles are annoying, but in AI control they cause me to quit the game...
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I think the lead computing should not be included. The crosshair should have some lines to help, though.
Yurch, you are having difficulty to kill the gunner, because he is exactly as tough as the ammo! He is smaller and while the ammo is explosive the gunner isn't...
My feelings about what is wrong about the lethality (this seems to change alot...):
1) The angle cap.
2) I think it doesn't matter how much you penetrate.
3) Functional components will stop AP shot 100% of the time. This makes Thor more vulnerable from sides than from rear. Some redesign would do good to the system.
4) 76mm AP. If shooting from far away, the distribution of shots makes it _extremely_ hard to actually kill anything. You will hit different parts, while you would need 3-4 shots to disable one part. And short range, the 20mm is clearly better.
5) ATGMs. Especially when bot controlled. I think that the bot uses manual range when aiming, resulting in the instant turn spin around the target. When locked in (and the bots are excellent at this), you can just say "NOT AGAIN!!!". And then your turret goes up in flames. Especially if you are using Apollo. Really effective short range weapon too. And the EWV isn't the answer, unless you go in first in the EWV.
6) Hurricane. While I think the weapon can be as it is, it would be nice if this one would be still a bit more rare, or a bit more easy to "drop". Not a big problem though. Except for the users of Apollo. But they are screwed anyways.
These are, as always, IMHO.
There is a server running called Drop Team with a mod called Test. Feel free to try it. Try Apollo with 120mm, should be a bit more agile. Fun to use in hulldown positions. 76mm has been updated. So has 20mm. 76mm is just more powerfull while the 20mm is as powerfull as ever, but with reduced penetration. Don't remember what else I have changed. The values aren't really serious, they are just for testing & comments.
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Ok, more things cleared. The reason why 76mm and 20mm to lesser extent feel so ineffective against the Thor is now clear. The engine is behind the fuel cells. While the engine is operational, it seems it will stop always the projectile. This means that if you want to destroy the tank from behind with hull shots you need _at least_ 6 perfect 76mm shots. Propably much more, as the engine has 80hp. It might be 10+ shots for guaranteed kill. And all this time the Thor is very much capable of fighting back. It will lose it's engine after 4-6 shots, and after 3-5 additional shots the Tank will explode. If you have a chance to fire to the turret back it is a much better choice. 3-4 shots and the turret will be in flames meaning the tank is no more usable as a weapon.
If thinking what a reasonable tank desginer would do, he would switch the place of the engine and the fuel cells. This way the fuel cells would be better protected from the front. It is also worth considering why the engine stops compeletely the AP projectiles while operational but doesn't do anything once not operational. Suggestion: "armor value" to the engine. If the projectile has more than this value energy after penetrating the main armor, the projectile will continue its way through the engine.
This same effect means that the Paladin is actually harder to kill from front. There is the engine, and the driver might get inbetween. The effect doesn't hit 20mmAP as much, because of its great effect from close range. While 120mmAP might suffer from this, if you get to fire to the rear of a tank you will proably use HEAT. I am quite sure that this is the effect that causes so much complaints about weapons effects.
Anyways, currently the Thor seems to be tougher from rear than flanks which doesn't feel right.
I have had the feeling often. Yes! I got that Thor surprised. Now it is just a few shots through that weak rear armor and it will be in flames. Then begins the shooting. You see the turret turning not so slowly towards you. The shooting continues. Maybe you win, maybe the Thor wins. If you are using 76mm, the Thor _will_ win. If you lose, the feeling after this is that you have been robbed a sure kill. You were behind him. He noticed you when you started shooting. And still he wins. Feels just so wrong! Even more so when you know you could have taken the Thor out with 3 20mm bursts for sure (close range, surprised target).
I was wrong about the hit points not taken into account. The problem is that the driver has 50 HPs while the fuel cells have the same amount. Engine has 80. As I see it, the driver should be protected with a compartment (armor) but if that inner compartment is breached, then the driver should be pretty easy to kill. I think I can add armor to inside objects, but I am not sure if it will work as intended.
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I got my server working with a custom mod, thanks for the help! Is there a way to have a default welcome message for the users of the server? Would be usefull, not only for testing servers, but I think there would be other uses as well. Editing the "your objective is to capture the enemy flag..." text which pops up at the beginning of each round doesn't work, as the scenario files are CRC checked or something.
One question about the game. Will there be changes to the unit values or the underlying penetration / damage system in the upcoming 0.942 version? Looking at the minor verison number change, I would think only bug fixes, but it never hurts to ask. If the underlying system is changed, then there is not much point to do any "serious" modding right now. I have something tested, but usually the system falls apart because I am trying to change too many things at one time. I need version control system, atleast one working inside my head.
Send you an email about something else, would not be interesting to larger public...
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First, Thor has a really respectable bottom armor in the game. The bottom is 100, the top is 150. Sides 150. Rear 125. I think it is this way to make the Thor better at resisting artillery shells. Second, if you aren't hitting anything important with the 20mm, you are doing _no_ damage, no matter if all of your ammo penetrates. I don't think that should be changed.
About the A-10. I don't believe the 30mm gun can penetrate the side armor of modern tanks at the range of 500m, atleast not reliably. Definitely it can't penetrate at the angle of 70 degrees.
When thinking about the advancements made in 20mm guns, you should also take into account what has happened to the 120mm gun. Is the relative penetration of the 20mm gun gone up or down? I don't know.
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The Paladin is one shot kill with the 120mm regardless of the range. If you hit something important with HEAT. The problem is that with HEAT it is really hard to hit a fast moving vehicle at long ranges. The nastiest kind of 20mm is the Hermes, you can't see it coming. It is 2 to 3 bursts and you are in flames, no need to kill yourself. Immobilization is not a problem here. The problem is that shooting to the center of mass from sides result in explosion.
The angle you need to hit the center is something like 70 degrees. That is, with this angle you can shoot to the center of the tank past the front armor. If the armor thickness of Thor is 150, then the effective armor value should be over 400 at this angle. Much more than the 20mm can penetrate. In the game the value is somewhere around 250 or something like that. The 20mm can penetrate that much. And when it penetrates, it seems it does as much damage as when shooting from 1 meter distance to the rear of the tank.
The 20mm should be good when firing from flanks and close range. Absolutely. That is what it's purpose is. It shouldn't be as good as it is now when firing from almost directly to the front of a MBT. 70 degree angle should be actually almoust optimal for the MBT, it should gain biggest possible effective armor values due to the angle! If you want a demonstration about what this means in game, try to assault the Ice map base with Thor when there is somebody with Hermes in there.
The Thor doesn't need more defences. It has good armor at the moment. The problem is that it is too easily "flanked" because of the 0.5 cap to the penetration angle.
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The 120mm is very much capable of first shot kills. The problem is that you have to hit the fuel cells with HEAT for this to happen. Unfortunately it isn't at all easy to shoot at the fuel cells of a fast moving vehicle. But the 20mm has a lot of shots to fire at the slow moving Thor. That is what makes the difference. And if the Thor doesn't kill you with first shot, you really are pretty much guaranteed to kill the Thor off. My feeling, based on nothing, is that HEAT should have a high chance of killing Paladins and Shrikes with first shot, even if the hit didn't hit the fuel cells. And the 20mm should only be able to penetrate the sides from near straight angle & close range.
I think I will be using some time next week doing a mod. Propably nothing serious, but just for testing purposes. I have already some ideas...
1) downgrade 20mm penetration and slightly the effect, upgrade 76mmAP and 120mmAP. 76mm and 120mm will have considerably more fragmentation damage. 76mmAP will have a possibility for 2nd shot kill, 120mmAP will have a possibility for 1st shot kill. HEAT will be almoust completely fragmentation based. Almoust sure 2nd shot kill even if you don't know what you are shooting at. If you know then first shot kill, as is now.
2) slightly upgrade the side armor of Thor, downgrade the rear armor.
3) slightly downgrade ATGMs, no first shot kills with these anymore. The ideal fix is to have countermeasures and minimum range.
4) Make the EWV go away, split it to different vehicles. At the moment it has too many goodies for one vehicle. Maybe downgrading 20mm is enough, don't know.
5) Keep Hurricane as powerful as ever. Make it even more rare. This is a vehicle you want to use in key situations but you don't want to lose this. Same to the Thor with heavy mortar. Artillery isn't supposed to be lost.
I don't know how these will work. My earlier tests have shown that achieving anything like balance isn't easy at all. And I know the current system is fun except for the ATGMs which I just hate at the moment. The biggest problem seems to be the combination of ATGM vs Apollo. It is _really_ boring to fight these. Thor is also very vulnerable. The other problem is that the ATGMs are _excellent_ short range weapons, comparable to 120mm HEAT, only with slower rate of fire. But as I understand the developers know this already.
The truth is that the 20mm isn't all that great if you have an opponent who knows what he is doing with his Thor. And the truth is that the side must be penetrable. Maybe the effect just shouldn't stack up so fast. Now it is 2 bursts and byebye if the shooter knows what he is doing. Or maybe it should be 1 shot with the Thor and byebye Paladin. Or maybe it is great just as it is now. Except for the 76mm.
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You have the 5900? So do I and no problems. Seems like ATI problem to me... I have also the AMD64 3200+ with 1Gb of memory. Both windows and linux working fine.
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I believe you didn't hit the fuel cells. If you did, the result is usually catastrophic. The fragmentation damage isn't that great on the other hand. I believe you need atleast 3 hits to kill with the fragmentation damage, even the paladin.Originally posted by Rollstoy:I have experienced the same effect (or lack thereof) of 120mm HEAT on a Paladin. I scored a solid center mass hit (fuel cells?) and expected a nice big explosion, but the vehicle kept going!
About the use of 120mmAP. The only valid uses I can see are trying to hit fast moving targets. Then there is firing at the Thor hull front from close range. Thats it. You might be tempted to use AP at long range, but remember, the penetration isn't that great at long ranges, you are better of using HEAT. You need atleast two hits against any target, propably more, particularly against fast moving targets in which case you can't really aim for the internal components. So the AP isn't that great. HEAT is.
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The truth is that the 20mm is more powerful than the 120mmAP at close range _if_ you know where to shoot. And everybody will, eventually. The Thor is dead if you get a 20mm vehicle to about 500m from it and into side. If you hit the fuelcells with your burst, you will do about 75% damage with one 20mm burst. If you hit it with 120mm AP you will do about 50% damage. With 76mm you will do about 30%. Decide which one is best. 120mm HEAT is very powerful on the other hand, so it balances things. But the 76mm doesn't have any good sides, only bad.
As the system works (this is what I have found out, I don't know for sure) there is base penetration. 300 for 20mm AP, 350 for 76 and 430 for 120mm. Then there is directkillfactor or something like that. .05 for the 20mm, .303 for the 76mm and .50 for the 120mm. If you hit something it is first calculated if you penetrate the armor. If you did, it seems that it doesn't really matter how much you penetrated. I am not sure, but I think it doesn't matter, anyways. After that it is calculated if you hit some of the components. If you did, the components effectiveness is decreased by the directkillfactor, it is maybe randomized a bit, or then there are things unknown to me taken into account.
There is hit points per component, but I don't know if they are actually used. If I remember correctly the driver has 10HP while the fuel cells have 50HP and the engine of Thor has 80HP. But it seems that these hitpoints aren't used in case of direct hit. Remember, I don't know what I am talking about, and I don't have the game here at work, so the numbers might be wrong. But the effect of this is, if you fire at the fuel cells of Thor, the 20mm will take it to around .25 effectiveness. Remember that the 20mm is 3 shots with each shot actually being 5 internally. I believe this to be unintentional BTW. This results in effective kill factor of 3x5x0.05=0.75. If you fire at the fuel cells with 76mm, direct hit again, you will cause it to go around .70 effectiveness.
On the other hand ATGM has a direct kill factor of 1.00 and it seems to hit critical parts of atleast the Apollo almoust every time it is fired in locked in mode. Means quite high chance of first hit kill. The game goes usually like this. The bots pick out Thors with 120mm. They are fun to fight against. Then the bots run out of Thors, and begin using the ATGM based systems. This part of the game is absolutely frustrating. The AI is _very_ good at gaining locked in status. Especially compared to its ability to use the direct fire guns. And it is very good at firing at close range with the ATGMS. This makes the ice map really, really boring to play in when the AI is using the ATGM systems.
Your options are supposed to be killing the ATGM launchers or go out of view. Well, if the AI gains lock in, then it doesn't help if you go out of view or kill the enemy. And am I supposed to kill him with first shot of my 120mm? With AP? Ain't happening. Not even if I am the best shooter there is. Hitting with HEAT at moving targets is hard. And not a sure kill either. And after first shot it is usually too late. Have you ever tried to play shoot & scoot with the AI using ATGMs. Well, can't do it. You will propably be totally annihilated. The AI has too good situational awarness and is too good at gaining locked in status.
Back to the physics of armor penetration. There is also a factor called fragmentation. I don't remember the numbers. But the only one with really good frag factor is 120mm HEAT. 20mm doesn't have any fragmentation at all.
Yes, the 120mm has a greater range, but the problem is that you need multiple hits with it. And, if you hit different parts of the vehicle, then the effects don't add up (not true for HEAT). The same is even more true with the 76mm. You can fire at the driver of the Thor with the 76mm and even with direct hits, no chance of killing him with first shot. Shots that don't hit anything important seems to be wasted completely with the 76mm.
If you take the component to 0 effectiveness, it is destroyed. The components has a factor called burn (or explode or something), and if it is 1.00, then the componen will explode if it is destroyed. If a component explodes, it destroys the object it is in. That means the hull or the turret.
The problems, as I see, with the system is as follows. And I believe these are problems with the system, not with the numbers being wrong:
1) The 0.5 minimum of the angle multiplier. Does not make sense.
2) I believe that it doesn't matter how much you penetrate the armor. This results in the 20mm being the best weapon overall.
3) The problem with perfect hits having no direct kill chance, even with 120mm AP from close range fired directly at the fuel cells. This goes hand in hand with number 2.
4) The HPs of things doesn't seem to be taken into account properly. Not sure about this.
If these are fixed (well, fixed to what I like anyways, it is wrong to say they are broken), then it is easy to mod the game to your liking. Don't want the 20mm be so effective? No matter, edit it. You want to make the system so that it doesn't matter where you hit? Can do. Increase the frag factor. Decrese the direct hit factor. Now you have something much more like the traditional FPS hit points system. The underlying system is incredibly moddable. Don't like the Paladin rollover? Make its center of mass lower. There isn't much you can't mod.
I believe the game will begin a life of its own. The great thing about the mod system is that you don't have to have the modified values with your local copy, it is enough that the servers values are modified. Actually, if you play at a server that has modified values, you can't tell it. So, this means that it is easy to test different value mods. I will be running a server called "Drusus Test" from time to time, there _will_ be different values used. Be warned.
I point this out once more. The underlying system is good. With few minor fixes it will be great. There is no need for great consensus about what is the true value of 20mmAP penetration. I could see it fun to have a tank that has great kill chance when it hits & long range (talking about 60-70% sure first shot kill). Downsides? Slow, really slow turret, and long reload time. Maybe would be fun, maybe not. Maybe you like it, maybe not. I understand that different people like different things. So, this is where modding comes in. The game needs just a userbase to do the mods. And I think we have atleast one volunteer.
I am actually getting a bit interested about the armor penetration & effects of direct hits. Is there any good online resources about this (the more mathematics, the better...) or books about this?
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Ok, that table is a bit hard to read. Anyhow take the first colum, it is range. Take the last column, it is the %. Compare with CMBB stats.
Also, It seems that if the rating of 15 calculated shots per every burst with the 20mm is correct, it means that the gun has actually a kill factor of .54. This is higher than the one for 120mm AP! I don't know, but this feels like it is ingame. You don't need many bursts to destroy Thor from side if you know where you are shooting.
Ok, still once I want to note that I don't know what is happening ingame, so I might be seriously wrong.
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The 76mm has better penetration and it is slowed down a lot less because of distance. It has a kill factor of about 30& which I believe means something like every 3 hits on component will disable it. Don't really know what I am talking about. The 20mm has a kill factor of only 5.0 but I believe every 20mm shot is actually more (yes, you lose 3 ammo for every shot, but I believe you actually fire 5 per every ammo point consumed). If that is correct you have a _much_ higher kill factor for the 20mm. And according to the DropTeam.Log this is correct. The 120mmAP has a kill factor of 50 and the HEAT has a factor of 100. So, hitting with HEAT to critical parts is a sure kill. That is why the 120mm is a good gun.
The penetrations are as follows. 300 for 20mmAP, 350 for 76mmAP and 430 for 120mmAP. The 120mmHEAT has a penetration of 200. The side armor of Thor is 150. Combine this with the fact that the maximum multiplier for angles is 0.5, and it means that you are actually able to penetrate the side of Thor from _any_ angle with the 20mm from close range. I don't like it. This results in a situation where the 20mm is really the best gun to use in close range fighting, the only thing it has problems with is the front of Thor (armor 300 -> should not penetrate ever), but everything else it kills easy. And here close range means something less than 500m. As I see it, it should be able to penetrate the side of Thor only from, say, 30 degree angle or even that there is some weak spots in the armor which are the only parts of the side it is able to penetrate. But this is just my opinion. What is not my opinion, is the fact that the 20mm is in every practical way better than the 76mm. With the 76mm the only real advantage is that you have much better effect at range. But you will need many good hits to kill anything with it anyways, so it doesn't matter. Also, with the 76mm there is no such thing as sure kill.
Ok, reading the logs for the penetration amounts. As follows:
r b a m f or %
1250 300 0.58 0.82 56.3 69.0 23
1000 300 0.76 0.75 81.5 108 36
750 300 0.70 0.77 148 192 64
500 300 0.35 0.89 224 252 84
200 300 0.67 0.79 227 287 96
100 300 0.67 0.79 233 295 98
r = range in m
b = base penetration
a = angle in radians (1.57 = 90 degrees)
m = modifier due to angle
f = final penetration, this has propably both range and angle in the value
or = penetration with only range calculated in. or = f / m
% = how much left of the base penetration due to range
Note, different planets have different atmospheres, so these aren't universal. But it seems the curve doesn't look like the one in CMx1. This is on the raid map. Also, these figures suggest that the 20mm is able to penetrate the side of Thor from 500m up to the angle of 75 degrees!
Also, the ATGM has a kill factor of 100, which means that when it hits it will do a lot of damage. But, it happens to also be very, very good at hitting targets. It is actually my number 2 favorite for close combat fighting.
Note to readers: I really don't know the inner workings of the game, so it might be that I am really wrong about this stuff.
BTW you can pretty much ruin the game in the ice fields map by spamming AA turrets everywhere and trying to fill all the area with AA defence. Add in EWVs. Add in sensor jammers. Even if you are not able to take out the enemy, he will use a major portion of his assets trying to find a landing spot. The bots will go crazy. If you give them manual drop orders, it is pretty much guaranteed they will use out the item they are trying to drop. If you don't give them manual orders, it is pretty much guaranteed you won't be using 120mm Thors in this map.
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There are people who want to get as many kills as possible. Nothing wrong with that. There are people who want to play cooperatively and don't care how many kills they get. No problems with that. Forcing either of these behaviours to all players is bad. I really don't think the system should be made restrictive. When the team matches start, nobody will be trying to get as many kills as possible, but to achieve a win for the team. But the same players might want to go to a "deathmatch" server and there they might want to achieve as many kills as possible.
It would be good to make servers that are team-play centric and server that aren't. I believe this will happen automatically in the future.
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I find the hardest part of controlling the bots is managing the drop points. If you have manual set drop points, you should be updating them continuously, because you never know when some of your bots get killed. If you don't have manual set drop points, they might drop anywhere with anything. Also, if you have manual drop point, but you run out of the item the AI is ordered to drop, it seems the AI goes to autonomous mode for the drop and then back to managed mode. This means that if I have my bot set to defend the flag with a drop point near my own flag the AI might decide it is a good idea to drop to other flag to capture the flag. When it has dropped, it will start going back to my flag base to defend the flag.
Bots and Cutters. Once in a while they decide that it is a good idea to drop a cutter somewhere where it is definitely not needed. Please fix or... something.
About the commands. I think move is just move to the point, never stopping. Dangerous command. Advance is advance to contact. Attack is the most flexible command. The AI can stop to fight, then again continue and so on.
For me the biggest problem when using turrets seems to be the bots, which are particulary good at picking out my "well" placed turrets... But still they are very important in the flag capturing, because they give you some time so that you can operate with more units to take the enemy flag. Ofcourse their bad side is that if you aren't able to take the enemy flag, you are in big problems because of the points cost.
BTW it seems that there isn't many aspect of the game that aren't moddable. I have had some fun trying out various stupid things. Seems if you change one value, next you need to adjust something else to balance things and so on. After all the tweaking, I must say that the defaults are actually quite good...
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If it is range related, it should take actually longer if you fire near yourself. Except ofcourse the low velocity ammo will take shorter to land than the high velocity sort.
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Might be that I have too much time... But it seems you are using a function like this to calculate the modifier:
hit angle in radians / (pi) = modifier
If the hit angle is pi/2 radians (90 degree) this will give a result of 0.5. Which can't be what you want. Instead you want something like:
hit angle in radians / (0.5 * pi) = modifier
Which will result in a modifier of 0-1, which in my mind is much closer to the truth when thinking about penetration. But anyways the current model results in a weird effect. Shells can penetrate at any angle if it is possible to hit the armor given that the range is short enough.
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Well, had to read the logs... I take that the angle is the angle in radians, and the modifier is the multiplier applied to the base penetration because of the hit angle. But the modifier never gets smaller than 0.5. But if the shot is travelling in a straight line (and I suppose it is), there should be a lot smaller modifier for near 90 degree hits. Or is there something else which is applied after this?
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I did some testing. It seems that there is something seriously broken with the penetration model. If I am firing at a Thor at angles of 80 degrees, that is from the normal, I will still penetrate the side armour. I found out about this when trying to face the enemy fire not straight front armor to enemy, but with a 10 degree tilt. The result is that my side armor will get penetrated. The only thing keeping me from exploding is the fact that when firing so "thin" it means that there is nothing important on the way. If this is intentional (that the Thors side armor is penetrable with 70-80 degree angle, close range, I admit) then my bad. Or if firing at your own vehicles has some effect on this...
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Once I was playing with this Patty fellow. First thing he told me was that he was a beginner playing first time. We tried everything when attacking that base. We failed miserably. He was a interesting beginner, the second thing he told me was that I shouldn't use AP at certain range because HEAT is more effective...Originally posted by ClaytoniousRex:LOL. Nicely put, Drusus. We'll take care of it.
But, for additional bugreports. The AI seems to be really stupid when it is given drop orders. It keeps on dropping in a certain death zone. Also it seems to be quite stupid when there are AA turrets all around the map (the ice map...). Í think it might be correct behaviour to override the drop order after deciding that the area is danger zone. When deciding if an area is safe, it should take into account also teammates killed. Ofcourse it is the responsibility of the one giving orders to not give stupid orders, but a suprising EWV attacking your landingzone does make you fight first, and only after that you have time for orders... And it is not fast to give orders to 7 bots.
Also, it would be really nice to get some message when your dropship is destroyed by hidden AA guns and things like that. Maybe only that your dropship was destroyed. I was going to report that there is something broken with the dropping, until I found out my dropships were destroyed by those hidden AA guns.
If you are going to implement the per player assigned bots, maybe it could be wise to make it so that you always give them drop orders manually. I think it is possible to control 1 to 3 bots in this way. Make the drop window pop up minimized, and have a hotkey to maximize it or something like that. Then normal click & drop. Why not make it an option for every bot in the team even in the normal game? If you give orders to drop in a risky area, then you might want to click this option (similar to autonomous). "Manual drop only" or something like that.
I don't believe I am saying this, but it seems the Thor is actually easy to take out. The "side panels" seem to be really the weak point of that beast. It seems that it will get penetrated even at high angles with the 20mm... The 20mm gun seems to be the best way to take out Thors, even better than the 120mm. Ofcourse you have serious problems when your only choice is to fire against the front armor. On the other hand, I don't jet know what is the weak part of Apollo when using 20mm. But I propably will learn. Well, maybe I should stop whining about the gun effects. Seems my opinion is changing too fast for you to patch... Except my opinion about the 76mm...
BTW do you have a bug tracker somewhere, or could it be possible to do a status update. I am sure you all are having way too much free time to do things like this... Would be nice to know which issues you have decided are going to be changed and which things are correct as is and so on.
This is turned on by default for the 120mm AP, so once again I was telling you something not true...
Non-bug Feedback Request
in DropTeam Demo
Posted
There definitely needs to be messages when you get killed by teammates (or yourself). I happened to be playing on that server on which yurch was and I had no idea what was going on. They voted to kick the offending player but ofcourse I didn't press 'y' because there just wasn't enough information.
About the Hermes: It is great. Is it too good? I don't think so. The angle modifier change has done a lot to weaken it. The angle modifier change has done one other thing, too. The 120mm HEAT is now a lot weaker than it was before. It's penetration is only 200, which means that it can't penetrate almoust anything when there is a bit more angle. I am not talking about extreme angles here. Maybe its penetration needs to be just a bit higher, something like 240?
Sorry to bring this out once more, but the Hurricane is still driving me crazy... Ever tried using Apollo against it? Or any of the wheeled vehicles? Against these vehicles the Hurricane has a great chance of first shot kill. Luckily there is still the Thor that can fight against it. But even Thor seems to be on the taking end when there is good player using the Hurricane. Maybe part of the problem is that playing with 250+ ping makes hitting the Hurricane too hard. I just happen to think that the Hurricane should be either easier to kill, or there should be a bit less of them in the inventory. Same with the Thor mortar. Make it worth hunting them down. One solution: make Hurricanes engine a bit more fragile and a lot bigger. That is, make it get "grounded" easier.
About the longevity of the game: To me it seems there is nothing to stop us making a WWII mod, for example. Should be fun. Only thing needed from the engine side is making it possible to have reinforcement points instead of the drop ships. I think it should be relatively easy to allow this.
And even when there is only a test version with only 2 maps the game is still worth more than most of the games I have seen. We just need European server with 0.942 on it...