xellos
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Posts posted by xellos
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I want our good old M4A3E2 & Thunderbolts VII(Abram's reinforced armor version of M4A3E8) back !Oh,105mm & 155mm VT shells just as well.....
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The penetration of Soviet cannon is definitely higher in CMRT than CMBB. I don't know for sure, but I think all the CMx2 games use WW II Ballistics as a basis, which if true would mean the Soviet 122mm cannon penetrates 158mm of RHA at 1000 meters when using AP ammunition and 162mm when using APBC.
But Rexford's figure still can't explain why KT's mantlet even got penetrated at 900m-1000m .I think KT's mantlet is some kind of reinforced mantlet just like Tiger's.
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No my in game tests have always been as expected. It was the calculator that was giving me some strange results. I used it again a couple days later though and it appeared to be giving me similar results to in game. No idea why I was getting such strange results before.
In the last scenario of RT,my KT's turret(even the mantlet)often get penetrated beyond 900m by Js2 tanks. I have 8 KTs and 11 panthers,5 KTs and 4 panthers had been killed at 1000m range ,only destroyed 2 JS2s(the opponet have 5 JS2s ).
In CMBB ,Russian 122mm gun can penetrate 136mm armor at 1000m,so I think there's something wrong with the armor or the gun's data.
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Doubtful. For the the ZiS-S-53 cannon CMBB lists the following penetration at range 0 against vertical armor:
AP: 133
APBC: 120
Actual penetration is (per WW2 Ballistics)
vs FHA
AP: 135
APBC: 128
vs RHA
AP: 146
APBC: 143
Neither matches up exactly, but the RHA numbers are closer.
Nevertheless, after finally getting time to run some numbers it appears there may be something slightly off.
First, I will assume CMRT uses 83mm for the Panther glacis plate thickness. Note that this is an assumption only, based on that being the CMAK thickness. It could be modeled at the official 80mm thickness as it was in CMBB. In fact, the latter would more closely match the reported test results.
At 83mm thickness the glacis plate resists 85mm APBC equivalent to 169.4mm vertical thickness for good quality armor. Armor flaw modifiers for low, medium and high severity flaws are .96, .92 and .84 (for T/D=.9765, 55° angle impact). Application of modifiers gives us end values of 162.6mm, 155.8mm and 142.3mm
At 600 meters Soviets 85mm APBC penetration is 119mm vs RHA. This has no chance at all against low and medium flawed armor, and only a very small chance against highly flawed armor --.84 (119/142.3) penetration/resistance ratio = 0% chance using US penetration data, 1% using Soviet penetration data. In order to get a 10% penetration chance per Soviet data the average armor flaw modifier would have to be 77%, which is prohibitively severe. In CMBB it was 85% across the board and even that was probably too harsh.
If we reduce the glacis place thickness to 80mm then the effective resistance of highly flawed armor goes down to 134.4mm, giving us a P/R ratio of .89 which translates to a penetration chance of 6% under Soviet criteria. That would be within the margin of error for a test showing 10% with a sample size of 131.
At some point this weekend I will hopefully get time to run a proper test with a proper sample size. If the actual penetration percentage is around 5-6% that would be consistent with a Panther glacis plate modeled as in CMBB -- 80mm thick and 85% quality across the board (the 0 penetrations reported in the CMBB test could be explained by the lower ZiS-S-53 cannon penetration in that game). However, the manual states that the Panther G has only "occasional manufacturing flaws" in CMx2, which would be more historically accurate. 83mm thickness is also closer to reality.
Sounds resonable ,I had noticed the Panther G's glacis plates were much tougher than those in CMRT.
In my CMBB tests(10vs10,hotseat mode) ,they could not be penetrated by 85mm APBC beyond 500m range just like Erwin had stated.
Can you do some tests with the Kingtigers's mantlet and the low hull armor against 122mm AP?In CMRT ,they seem too weak to be penetrated at 500m.
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Erwin, hi,
Good tests...
Your tests represent a 1 in 10 chance of the Panther’s glacis plate suffering a sudden decrease in protection of around 30%. Given that it considered flawed by Lorrin... what is there to debate?
All seems to fine...
.All interesting stuff..
All the best,
Kip
Erwin has already said that in cmbb ,the PantherG's glacis plate cant be penetrated by 85mm APBC
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I am about 99% sure that CM does not model edge effects. As for CMBB penetration stats, when I checked them a few days ago for the T-35/85, the numbers appeared to have been for strikes on face hardened armor. The Panther G glacis plate is rolled homogenous, against which the T-34's penetration will be higher.
I think the penetration stats numbers in cmbb is for strikes on RHA,not for strikes on FHA which presents in cmak.
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In Henri Marie's book ,it says on the night of 6/12,some French locals(Henrie Robin) had seen two tigers stay near the Hauts-Vents.
The British accounts said there were at least 5 tigers attaked them,two on the left (it means Hauts-Vents),three on the right(Montbrocq-Cidrerie) ,and then another tiger came from the north side of N175.On the forum of missing-lynx and TIIF,there are many evidences point out the tiger coming from the north is No231, whitch had come later to the battleground ,and fight with Wittmann near La Cavaire ,even followed him into the town,wounded by the firefly of Sgt.Moore,retreat to La Cavaire,got immobilised by the 6 pounder gun.
In Brandt's account,he said he had destroyed three shermans ,but there weren't any shermans on N175 at that time ,the tanks may be the Stuarts belong to Lt.Ingram's Recon Troop of 4LYR.,so we can sugget that he must stayed near Hauts-Vents.
After Wittmann dashed towards the town ,Sowa & Stief had attacked Point 213,so the one stayed with Brandt's tiger must be Hatusch's tank.
On 6/14,when tiger 222 and tiger 231 move to the point 213,Hantusch appeared on 222,we can suggest that he must stay with the immobilised 231 near La Cavaire on 6/13,and his tank's original position must be near the Hauts-Vents(according to the panzer IV crew member's memory,there were two tigers stayed near La Cavaire ,one of them seemed to be knocked out,the driver was dead.This tiger must be No.231)
If you could look at CMAK's Scenario Hill 213 - Villers Bocage made by theDesertFox,he also move Lotzsch and Brandt 's tigers to the Hauts-Vents.
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I think Lotzsch & Hantusch 's tigers should stay with wittmann's 2nd company to the south of N175, and Lotzsch's tiger should be immobilsed.Instead ,there should be another tiger(No.231)appear at Hantusch's original position on the map(to the north of N175).No231 and Wittmann's 212 are the tigers which destroyed the A squadron (London Yemonry)
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Did anybody notice the floating MG's model when the whole HMG squad were moving forward,after installing the 2.11 patch?
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So ,will this "bug"be fixed ,or it had already been fixed in the patch 211?
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If you select all the units on the map ,then give them a move command ,German soldiers will pack the Flak and move forward.
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Why this panzer lost it's mg34 ?
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Did anyone notice the Marder III M dirver's bottom get stuck at the wrong place?
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I've found three photos which show several members of German 2nd Panzer Division who had been captured by the Desert Rats on June 13th morning somewhere west of Villers-bocage when the 7th Armored Division marched towards their destination.
According to some threads,these men were replacemental personnels who had been sent to the 2nd PzD(notice their Gebirgsjaegers badges) .
Other British accounts also proved there were lots of Germans hidden in VB or Point 213 during the battle .
Lots of German infantry men had been shot dead or captured when A sqruadron of 4th London Yeomanry Regiment took the town and the Point 213.
Captain Dyas said he had been shot by German MG when he tried to return to his Crownwell tank ,his eye got hurt by the bullets.
Several accounts from VB locals said they had seen German Armored cars somewhere east of VB or hidden along side of N175( under the trees).
Lt Lockwood said his Firefly tank 's first shot made one building nearby collapsed and buried the German MG gunner.
One of the Luft PK's shot shows a German KFZ70 Car destroyed by A Squadron of 4th London Yeomanry on the morning of June 13th before Wittmann's Attack(on Point 213).
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dieseltaylor,
If you mean the Dutch site, then you want the British flag just below the cool thumbnails of the topics covered. The translation's generally good, but there are confusing rough patches in places. Or, you could just go here, Unfortunately, this covers only Normandy, not all the grog goodies on the Dutch language side of the house. Hope he keeps translating!
http://www.strijdbewijs.nl/normandie1/home.htm
The first link xellos so kindly provided shows pics of Tiger 1s of sPzAbt 101 peculiar to certain commanders. Wish the note weren't in frame! The info looks wonderful, but my Russian's minuscule--if that!
Regards,
John Kettler
I remembered when I first found this site ,I just used Google Translate Tool to translate them into English.
You can try it ,that will be helpful a lot.
The site includes all the 101's tigers in detail,even the battle lost during VB and after that battle,all the tank commander's name ,monthly tank deliverd data and more.
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He is, I think, referring to Seedorf81's link and you, I suspect, are trying to find a translation for xellos' link - which doesn't seem to have a translation option
To do that,You can try Google's translate Tool.
These web sites are also very useful:
About 101's Tigers photos(which came from the same person who wrote the VB battles):
http://www.retrospicere.narod.ru/2-liberation1944-45/liberation1944-45_001-01.htm
About VB battle itself:
http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?threadid=496&sid=aa01afffad655edfb00f55d702e18a89
About Wittmann's tiger 212 in detail:
The auther of the VB battles came from Russia,he had taken part in countless discussions about VB on many web sites during the last few years(on missing-lynx,Tiger Im Focus, tank's xxx etc.).To me,his information(with a lot of photos evidence as well) is very very useful.
I rememberd there was a scenario called 44_06_13_Hill_213.cmg which had been created for CMAK by Desertfox(?),it's map and OOB are the most accurate ones I 've ever seen.
I wish someone would use CMBN to recreate VB battles with lots of details one day:)
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The Light Company(4th Kp) of the 101st sPA and some SS PK personnels came to VB on June 14th,but they didnt take part in any battles there.
German Luft PK personnels had also arrived in VB on June 16th,they shot some propagganda photos just like the SS Pks did,that's why there were Germans with different uniforms in those pictures.
Some resources claimed the 2nd Panzer Division's Recon units had joined the fight on June 13th, the British AARs proved it as well(Desert Rats had captured a few of them on the morning of June 13th).
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You can also try this Russian site:
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Why pak40's vel data on the document is 750m/s?(792m/s in cm)
And its penertration data also seems much weaker than CMBB's data(I dont know cmbn's data)
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After you loaded an old save file(1.11),you could watch the play back .
If you want to watch it again and pressed the botton ,it just got stuck and crashed to desktop.
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But the PBEM old save play-back's freezing/ctd bug is still there.
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method: just transfer cmak 's villers 44-6-13 scenario to cmbn
but it still need to wait for 2.0 patch
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Excellent AARs! Chainsaw...you reading this thread?
thanks for your kind reply ,maybe i should change some pics ,there're some errors in them
another 17 pounder AT gun 's position ,it blocked my tank's advancing route .
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round 65, we agreed to cease fire
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A not very exciting Christmas Bone this year
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted · Edited by xellos
Abram's Thunderbolt VII was just like these tanks.