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BigMik1

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    **** ROW V (Part 3) ****

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Sivodsi:

    Come back Dawg! You're being too sensitive!

    Hello fellow CM Warriors, I am also a member of Group 7 and agree Dawg was damn good and he fought me hard as I did him. He needs to move on to the finals.

    Dawg, stop this craziness or I will make a short trip to New Orleans from Houston and get you right!!! Get ready to fight for the wine!!!

    BigMik1

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BigMik1:

    I have another reply from the 761st "official" website. I was asking since the number is so high, how can they account for that. So below is the reply:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The number is rather high - I agree. There is a chart of damage to the enemy that you can find in COME OUT FIGHTING in the history section of the web site. Keep in mind that this tank battalion was a GHQ (separate unit).

    During approximately six months of non stop duty, they fought in 4 major campaigns supporting 7 different infantry divisions (one Abn), in 6 different countries. Unlike an armored division that would cut through the

    enemy lines and disrupt the enemy's activities in the rear, the GHQ tank battalions would stay and slug it out and mop up with the infantry.

    Here is the website address: http://www.761st.com/

    BigMik1 </font>

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

    Yes, it is always a group effort but when one unit makes claims to the denigration of others or says "we were the first, fastest, best" no matter the color, then evidence needs to be shown. If a unit claims to have spent more time in continuos combat in the ETO than any other US unit the burden of proof is on them, not on those that dispute it.

    Greg [/QB]

    Here is a little bit from the website of the 761st.

    The strength of the 761st Tank Battalion was proven during 183 days of continual fighting (including action in the Battle of the Bulge) after the Black Panthers became the first African-American armored unit to enter combat.
    BigMik1
    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    I have another reply from the 761st "official" website. I was asking since the number is so high, how can they account for that. So below is the reply:

    The number is rather high - I agree. There is a chart of damage to the enemy that you can find in COME OUT FIGHTING in the history section of the web site. Keep in mind that this tank battalion was a GHQ (separate unit).

    During approximately six months of non stop duty, they fought in 4 major campaigns supporting 7 different infantry divisions (one Abn), in 6 different countries. Unlike an armored division that would cut through the

    enemy lines and disrupt the enemy's activities in the rear, the GHQ tank battalions would stay and slug it out and mop up with the infantry.

    Here is the website address: http://www.761st.com/

    BigMik1

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Okay, I received a reply from the "official" website for the 761st and I asked what was the official casualty count for the unit, plus what concentration camps they liberated. The reply is below:

    GREETINGS,

    THE CASUALTIES INFLICTED UPON THE GERMAN ARMY BY THE 761ST IN COMBINED OPERATIONS WITH THE ATTACHED INFANTRY WAS APPROXIMATELY 130,000(REPORTED).

    THE CONCENTRATION CAMP WAS GUNSKIRCHEN LAGER AND OTHER SMALL SUB CAMPS.

    I replied back to who is the "reported"? But, it seems they combined the casualties caused by the unit with the operations they were in and the infantry units they were with. Interesting. I will try to see if they have the info of just the 761st by itself. Because they were in the Battle of the Bulge, for example, so I guess they threw that number in there. Need to find a clear number if I can.

    BigMik1

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Well, till we have more facts, we can go on forever, so I will just wait and see. Glad to see a discussion on these brave souls.

    And Hun Hunter, I hope I see you jump on other numbers and not just the numbers of "colored" units. Let's be fair to all and the truth come correct for all units. smile.gif

    BigMik1

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Hun Hunter,

    Not getting testy, but find numbers and facts to let us know the "truth" before saying, "It's bogus!" and "it's wrong!". Well let us know what you came up with? We are all historians in some degree and would like to see new info that will tell us more about a situation in WW2. So find some facts and disprove the info you think is wrong before you squash it to death.

    And can YOU prove they were not in the field that long?

    I am trying to find facts.

    BigMik1

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

    So yes, this seems like a very inflated claim.

    These guys were brave enough to have plenty of glory from their actual accomplishments; always bothers me when already perfectly fine records are embellished and simply reverse the desired effect.

    But, they did a great job, even the great Patton himself at first didn't want them around till he needed them. The claim is high, but I don't think the vets did it, so give them a break. I have talked to many old African American vets of WWII and even one of the oldest living Buffalo Soldiers and they don't pump up their stories, they try their best to give it right and you can see it in their eyes, all that pain and many times glory. It bothers me they didn't get the Presidential Citation until Jimmy Carter was in office, now that's crazy.

    And then several Black MOH winners didn't get their due justice till Bill Clinton gave them out. WOW.

    But hey, it's the times we live in.

    BigMik1

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

    The 130,000 number is bull. Are you seriously trying to tell me that this one battalion inflicted 1.6% of the military casualties that the Germans suffered in all of WW2 (that includes the Eastern front)?

    Just speculating, but might it include the huge numbers of German soldiers surrendering at the end of the war? If they were in the right place at the right time, that might have boosted their score by tens of thousands.

    Michael </font>

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BigMik1:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

    There was also a film (based on a book) that asserted the 761st liberated Dachau. I'll bet that's news to the 45th & 42nd Infantry Divisions. This bogus claim even made it to MSNBC . WHY do people try to rewrite history (rhetorical question folks smile.gif )

    Whoa there, that was probably one mistake. In many items I have read about this unit they do not make this claim about Dachau. So watch how you throw the bogus claim around smile.gif . And the casualities they put on the Germans is true. They were in the field sooo long without a break they could do nothing else but fight and kill the enemy.

    These men would not rewrite history to make themselves look good, they would like their REAL story to get out. Many have tried to put their story in the background for years. When most folks see the US soldiers in WWII, they see only white, when it was so many colors that contributed to the victory.

    BigMik1 </font>

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

    On the subject of stats, actually, the "30" villages and towns mentioned earlier in the thread also seems low to me...

    Actually, the book I referred to was Hit Hard, so I am in error. It's in paperback by David J. Williams. I probably don't need it anymore, so if this is near and dear to anyone's heart, let me know. Not a bad book; it is written by one of the white officers. Most memorable quote was on page 18 where he says "In fact, it was the first time I ever heard the epithet motherf***er." I am quite sure it wasn't part of "white" slang in the 1940s - Vietnam war movies would suggest that by the 1960s it was universal...so perhaps we know where they got it from?

    Hey if you don't want it I will take it. I would love to add it to my collection. :D

    BigMik1

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by Hun Hunter:

    There was also a film (based on a book) that asserted the 761st liberated Dachau. I'll bet that's news to the 45th & 42nd Infantry Divisions. This bogus claim even made it to MSNBC . WHY do people try to rewrite history (rhetorical question folks smile.gif )

    Whoa there, that was probably one mistake. In many items I have read about this unit they do not make this claim about Dachau. So watch how you throw the bogus claim around smile.gif . And the casualities they put on the Germans is true. They were in the field sooo long without a break they could do nothing else but fight and kill the enemy.

    These men would not rewrite history to make themselves look good, they would like their REAL story to get out. Many have tried to put their story in the background for years. When most folks see the US soldiers in WWII, they see only white, when it was so many colors that contributed to the victory.

    BigMik1

    [ October 07, 2004, 11:43 PM: Message edited by: BigMik1 ]

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    Originally posted by YankeeDog:

    The short answer is, probably yes.

    Unfortunately, getting your hands on that kind of stuff takes a bit of work an patience. Someday, I'll have time for projects like that. . .

    IIRC, a couple of other works have been written about the 761st. I think one of them was called "Come out Fighting" or something like that. I'd like to get my hands on it.

    I don't know if any of these sources actually contained detailed enough info about terrain, OOB and tactical engagement to actually create an historical scenario as an official unit history certainly would.

    You could definitely get enough stuff out of Brothers in Arms to do some decent "Semi-historical" scenarios. The battalion basically drove 76mm Shermans, with M5A1 lights in the recon company, and Sherman 105s in the Arty platoon, for its entire service. Brothers in Arms gives enough of an idea about the numbers of tanks involved in specific engagements, as well approximate composition of accompanying infantry, and basic description of enemy forces and terrain to do "inspired by historical events" type scenarios.

    Cheers,

    YD

    It would be nice to see some CM scenarios on this unit. Try this website for some detail, it's called "Lest We Forget" at

    http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/

    It was created by an African-American that has collected alot of info from the web on African Americans in the military. Take a look in the WWII section.

    BigMik1

    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    There is a new book on the 761st Tank Battalion. It was done by Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Anthony Walton. It's called Brothers in Arms: The Epic Story of the 761st Tank Battalion, WWII's Forgotten Heroes. Here is a summary of the book:

    Brothers in Arms recounts the extraordinary story of the 761st Black Panthers, the first all-black armored unit to see combat in World War II.

    Kareem Abdul-Jabbar first learned about the battalion from family friend Leonard "Smitty" Smith, a veteran of the battalion. Working with acclaimed writer Anthony Walton, Abdul-Jabbar interviewed the surviving members of the battalion and their descendants to weave together a narrative based on their memories and stories, from basic training through the horrors on the battlefield to their postwar experiences in a racially divided America.

    Trained essentially as a public relations gesture to maintain the support of the black community for the war, the battalion was never intended to see battle. In fact, General Patton originally opposed their deployment, claiming African Americans couldn't think quickly enough to operate tanks in combat conditions. But the Allies were so desperate for trained tank personnel in the summer of 1944, following heavy casualties in the fields of France, that the battalion was called up.

    While most combat troops fought on the front for a week or two before being rotated back, the men of the 761st served for more than six months, fighting heroically under Patton's Third Army at the Battle of the Bulge and in the Allies' final drive across France and Germany. Despite a casualty rate that approached 50 percent and an extreme shortage of personnel and equipment, the 761st would ultimately help liberate some 30 towns and villages, as well as the Gunskirchen Lager concentration camp.

    The racism that shadowed them during the war and the prejudice they faced upon their return home is an indelible part of their story. What shines through most of all, however, are the lasting bonds that united them as soldiers and brothers, the bravery they exhibited on the battlefield, and the quiet dignity and patriotism that defined their lives.

    BigMik1
    0

    African Americans.

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    I am so happy to see a positive conversation on the realities of African American soldiers in WW2. I thought I would have to respond with some answers, but I am glad many grogs came with very good answers.

    I am a member of the board of directors of the Buffalo Soldiers National Museum here in Houston, Tx. In the museum we try to preserve, promote, and perpetuate the history, tradition, and outstanding contributions of African Americans toward the defense of the US.

    So Dandelion, if you need so info, let me know. And the Buffalo Soldiers scenario is okay, glad it was made, but would love to see more. The man who is the focus of that scenario is a personal hero of mine.

    BigMik1

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