[Integrating indirect fires]

I think restricing Arty to FOs (and only a certain type for each FO) is a game modeling thing, that allows to put a certain price on every arty module.

Since in CMBB most battles are balanced by equal points on both sides, arty must have a certain value. If every 81mm FO could call 105mm and every company commander could call 81mm, then that would screw up the balancing game.

As for employing them...on the attack you'll usually find the enemy close to the flags, so you'll need an arty guy with LOS to your flags. On the defense place them so that they can cover most of the open ground further out.

For a large attack scenario, motorizing FOs (buying Radio FOs) certainly is a very good idea. While the AI may sit directly on flags, pre-planned against human opponents tends to be soooo useless - unless the map clearly has only very limited cover for the defender.

[Methedrine, Benzedrine, Hash, Boo, Valvoline!!]

Originally posted by Tero:

A few days a ago there was in Finnish TV a documentary about a man who was hooked on drugs for over 60 years after having been "exposed" to them during in the service during WWII. He was able to shake the habit at the age of 71.

Here we have a glorious example of an Uberfinn again. Joins the war effort with 11, gets hooked on drugs around the same age, and 60 years later, when he's 71, he shakes the bad habit off.

Or should we check the numbers again?

As for that chocolate...the round tin it comes in reminds me of that scene in "Stalingrad" towards the end of the movie, where they find the airdropped supplys and medals. I always was wondering what would be in those tins.

[ February 09, 2004, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: RSColonel_131st ]

[CMAK, CMBB, CMBO: Anthology of Useful Posts II]

The basics

http://www.battlefront.com/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=001705

[Does HMG annihilate tank from above?]

Maschine Guns against Armor is strange the way it appears in CMBB...

I was thinking along similar lines with the sovjet 12.7mm DKSH against german armored cars, Halftracks etc. Since a .50 cal will open current austrian APCs (I wouldn't call them modern, but they are not that old either) I wanted to try if the WW2 Version will do the same to APCs.

From what I found, Penetrations for single Maschine-Gun Bullets dont seem to be modelled at all. That is, you dont get any "penetration; partial penetration etc." messages.

However, light armor, when coming under 12,7mm Fire, will be abandoned by the crew VERY quickly, even if no one else is firing at it, and even if the crew has no losses.

Similar thing happened to me in a recent TCP/IP Game...my enemy used a DKSH on a Halftrack, and after two salvos my perfectly good crew bailed out of a perfectly good vehicle.

So, long story short...as I see it, the game has "canon" ammo and "infantry" ammo, where Canon Shots will be tracked individually, but infantry ammo will not. Yet even if they are not individually tracked, they have a certain power over enemy vehicles.

[Bringing down a building...almost]

3rd Battle of Kharkov is an interesting operation where you get 4 Grille Self-Propelled sIGs and lots of buildings to waste.

Though I didn't "damage-manage" it in this detail, I just flattened the outskirts of the city on one end while entering the other side. 56 Infantry kills, and most of these squads I never really saw...

[Is shoot and scoot historical?]

Mix of both, I guess.

AFAIK there's a real life equivalent (actually mentioned in a tank sim I used to play) where a tank will go from turret-down to hull down position and back to get off a few shots and retreat into cover. With the TC peeking out from the top of the turret, this means you still have some spotting ability from out of cover.

OTOH, you are correct in that the preciseness with which this manouver can be done in CMBB (and not just with vertical elevation, but also around corners) is a result of the game engine and "borg spotting".

[Tanks commanders like to die]

Actually, Vulture, they do. I played the 3rd Battle of Kharkov scenario, and I swear I lost a quarter of my Halftrack-Maschinegunners and Tank Commanders to enemy fire - eventually you could see them unbutton during the turn even if they had just an order to button up.

But then, on another forum we have an ex-finnish TC (modern day T-90 or something like that) and even he says that in Finnland, with engagement ranges in woods under 300 meters, that it is standard to unbutton and use the hatch as a shield. So it seems things didn't change drastically.

[How Germans really took out KV-1s]

Wow...imagine what kind of force would be needed to throw a KV-2 on it's back like that...Or what kind of "bumb" it makes sliding off the slope and falling on it's back itself.

[Two in one - Pioneers mine clearing and squads riding in halftracks]

Actually that "targeting wire" is a pretty useless function...friend of mine had a Maxim MG sitting UNDER a block of wire, and whenever I tried to target it all I got was the pointer jumping to the wire itself. Eventually had to use a narrow covered arc to make clear the target I wanted to be shot...

[Infantry Attacks across open ground.]

Originally posted by The Hapless General:

The situation I described was dished out to me by the QB generator. It seems that, especially in low point encounters, on the American side, it has trouble generating any significant support for the infantry and ends up with a strong infantry presence with little support.

Since I only have CMBB, I can't try it, but now I can understand better what the problem is...

I'm still not sure if you simple shouldn't change the map to be less open - I just can't belive that historical, if one side had totally ****ty cards (like the mentioned "infantry over open ground without armor), that someone would still have ordered an attack.

In other words...perhabs I'm making it too easy for myself, but in QMBs I always see to it that both sides have a fair chance to accomplish the mission with the equipment given...

[Book Recommendations on German Mechanized Forces?]

Wow, lots of choice here. I'll have to see what combination suits my budget

Wish I could buy them all...

[Infantry Attacks across open ground.]

Originally posted by The Hapless General:

I guess, that as you said, there is no magic formula, and perhaps an infantry coy, alone cannot hope to overcome this setup.

Which is pretty much what I belive...

When I have a setup that allows me only infantry and light armored vehicles, then I do not expect to run into enemy tanks or lots of heavy canons.

Would that even be historical? One would think you do just not attack when you're at a disadvantage.

Some of the situations descriped here pretty much equal all hope lost from the very start. While certain scenarios may be like that, I would not expect to find such huge differences in a normal QB Setup.

[Book Recommendations on German Mechanized Forces?]

I may be able to find a translator who will make sense of that strange german dialect you guys are speaking...then these books could indeed be off interest.

Especially the former one about Infantry...

Are these more about structure and organization, or more about tactics and doctrine? Later would be prefered.

Marc, thanks for unlurking. I really think PL would be a good follow up to "Achtung Panzer", from what you descripe...iit may be nice to see how the "Blitzkrieg" concept came from theory to practice...

[Infantry Attacks across open ground.]

The obvious...if infantry has to move over open ground, then that means you must be short on tanks. Otherwise tanks would lead.

But still, even if you have only some vehicles, they can be very usefull. A Halftrack is quite immune to that "harrasing fire".

A Scout-Car may actually be able to close in and return some fire from a good hiden spot.

Of course, mortars and HMGs on area fire may also help you to pin a few enemy squads.

[How do you attack a "keyholed" enemy?]

Xerxes...genius.

That is something I completley ignored. Of course, a keyholed position in a street will be flanked by two buildings...each giving a moderate dust cloud...

Hey, cool, thanks! I mean, I noticed that destroyed buildings provide good smoke cover, but to deliberatly use it...never occured to me.

[The basics.]

Okay, that friend of mine dropped 105mm german Arti on my trenches today.

Now I'm a beliver in big guns...sitting under that kind of fire was NOT fun, and he actually took out my left-hand AT-Gun (he just didn't use the left flank later, big mistake).

[Attention Eichenbaum]

This is as good a topic as any other to say my piece

Eichenbaum, I only recently have been to your website and check out Operation Störfang...and by god, there's a lot of skill and a cool presenation to boot involved.

Kudos for trying to get something so big going.

[Book Recommendations on German Mechanized Forces?]

Ì'm looking for a new addition to my bookshelf that has CMBB-Level tactical reports on german forces, preferable mechanized/armored infantry in cooperation with tanks.

I already got the Nazifiger Collection "German Squad Manuel" from the Battlefront Store.

I did like Guderians "Achtung Panzer" on a theoretical level, is his "Panzer Leader" similar to what I'm looking for, or just mere politics?

Anything else I could find at amazon.de?

[The basics.]

I agree on heavier Arty and Heavy Weapons. Eventually, a player should learn to use those...it sure took me a while, but I'm getting there.

As for recon...if you want to scout for a mechanized advance, then your recon has to be mechanized. Even if the jeep gets eventually whacked, you still have a dismounted half squad ahead - but it can not lead the attack on foot, doing so would slow down armor and halftracks.

If you know how to move them, it works well enough. Within one or two turns the main force can move up to the scouts, destroy the outpost that's blocking their advance, and the scouts can continue - well, that's the theory anyway.

Also, humans make mistakes. While in general a player can stay stealthy while whacking scouts, there's a high chance he'll have forgotten to hide a certain unit, or perhabs has moved an unit and not given a new hide command etc...

Well, that's how it works for me anyway. Mehcnaized scouts ahead, if they get pinned the main force will have some weapons that can flatten the outpost without revealing itself, and off goes the scout again. That's also a "game in the game" for me...

As for forward FOs...keep in mind that these are usually 81mm Mortar ones.

If you manage to drop it right onto the advance, you can kill or route two platoons, and right there you just won half the battle.

I have killed up to 70 enemy infantry with a single mortar strike. That's 70 less into the main attack.

[The basics.]

Hi Chaps! I suckered an american friend of mine into playing CMBB while he was visiting me here in Austria, and today we played a few TCP/IP Games...Mechanized Infantry for both sides, no tanks, small maps, little arty.

Very basic games, to learn very basic tactical ideas.

Since I'm bored at the moment, I decided to wrie him a nice email with a lot of small, basic things to keep in mind. But then, why keep it to an email if this may help other players here as well?

So, I'm not intending to write something along JasonCs line of Quality here. If you have played Combat Mission for three months+ then most likely this post will not be for you. But if you're new, you may get some ideas out of it.

So, first things first.

Obviously, a game starts with buying forces.

For the Defence: You never want to be without some kind of Anti-Armor Defense. Unless you absolutly know that the enemy will bring pure infantry, or that you will be sitting in woodland unpassable to any vehicles.

So, bring at least an Anti Tank Rifle against Halftracks or armored Scout Cars. Or a Tankhunter Team, Pioneers with Destruction Charges, anything. A small mortar MAY do the job if you're lucky (I took a T-26 out once with a 50mm mortar).

If you dont do, you end up like my friend today...losing a game to three armored scout cars that cleared two sections of trench packed with infantry - a defense that would have broken most of my Infantry Guys easily.

Likewise, if you are assaulting, even in a small 500 point game you may want to bring some armored vehicles. Even the most basic halftrack will be able to break an infantry stalemate in your favor.

On the other hand, Canons can be very useless for the attacker unless you either tow them around, or you have a map with LOTS of open LOS. Otherwise they end up sitting in the setup-zone without ever seeing the enemy.

If you want speedy recon, bring one or two jeeps (two jeeps for 1,5 companys infantry would be average).

HMGs can be similar to canons in their usefullness and faultiness. A HMG in a good position makes a lot of difference, but a HMG in a bad position will be too slow to advance in time. You might want to use them in combination with the jeeps.

Get some arty, while you're at it. 81mm Offboard Mortars are very usefull in disrupting infantry attacks and laying down large smoke screens. They are quicker as well, compared to the large calibres.

If you are not sure that you will have LOS from the attack-setup zone, you may prefer a radio spotter so he can embark on a vehicle and ride into battle. Otherwise they are hellish slow.

Setup:

For both the defender and attacker: Stop trying to defend/attack the whole lenght of the map. I made this error, my friend made this error, and thus I assume lots of new people make the same error.

The target of a mission is to either take or defend objectives - symbolized by flags. If you have three flags and take two, you already lead in points. Or, if you take a 300 point flag and leave two 100 point flags well alone, you still lead in points.

So, the germans called that "Schwerpunktbildung" or "Axis of attack" for you english speakers.

As the defender, you select a majority of objectives located in usefull ground, and set up there. Tight. Dont stretch your squads all across the frontline, or they will be too thin to withstand the enemy onslaught. You can use a few split-squads as outposts beyond your main defense position, but that's about it.

Select defense positions forward and around the objectives - make sure that you have adequate flank protection (that's a necessarity if you can not defend the whole front line - and you never can, unless you have a king tiger on a hill with 2 km open ground around him).

Another common mistake seems to be that people set up their defenses in nice geometric positions. Straight line of trenches with wired sections in between and such.

Forget that. You want to set up somewhere in good cover (houses, forrest, etc) with a large, clear field of fire towards the enemy side. You want to catch him in open ground. It's usually a good idea to leave the first line of houses empty - because that's where his direct fire HE-Chuckers can hit you most easily. For kicks and giggles, you can mine these houses (place a minefield close to the wall into the enemy side) and watch him panic when he tries to enter.

Set the heavy weapons a little back to your main line of infantry - they have the range, and will survive longer that way. Interconnect your defense positions...for example, allow trench troops to retreat into a house next to them without running over open ground. Leaving a trench means leaving the best cover you ever get, but behind that house you may be out of sight from the real bad guys...sitting it out in the trench is not always an option.

Even more so for foxholes...

Keep your forces hidden so the attacker will not know where you are - and they will hold their fire till the attacker is in the kill zone.

You can, of course, setup some unhidden outposts ahead - that's also a good place for artillery FOs, because they have good optics, they are hard to see, and they have good LOS into the enemy advance.

For the attacker, you likewise want to find a point of attack that A) promises you to get the majority of objectives, and has suitable terrain for your purpose. Now, if you had superior long-range armor, that would be open ground.

But for mechanized infantry, it's woods, trees, bushes and walls you want to advance trough.

Again, pack tightly. Check for flank defenses. Determine spots for your heavy weapons from where they can use their superior range to shoot at the enemy without reciving too much fire in return.

Prepare scout troops. Either use split squads - or if you want fast scouting, use split squads on jeeps - or HMG-Sections on jeeps. Place them ahead of your main body, and keep the main body hidden till your scouts clear the way.

Onwards to the game itself:

As defender, you want to remain hidden as long as possiple. Idealy, you want to have the enemy troops in open ground, 100 to 150 meters in front, while still being hidden to his eye.

Then, concentrate fire on a few selected squads, and let them have it. If, for example, your platoon of four groups with a HMG next to it faces 6 or 7 enemy squads, then disperse your fire between 3 or 4 of them. That way you have a high chance of instantly pinning them for one or two turns, and you will only recive fire from the remaining forces. So, instead of a shooting match 4 to 7, you now have a match 4 to 4 or better. While the first few groups are down, switch fire to the others...now they will go down. Rinse and repeat.

The idea is to BREAK his morale the first moment you open fire. You dont want to blink away happily at single soldiers, because eventually he will bring in more infantry and outnumber you. You dont shoot to kill, you shoot to panic and surpress (killing comes automatically). And that works best at short range, and when the enemy has a clear cover disadvantage.

Now, as attacker, you want to avoid that. You want to SCOUT ahead. So, you mount some troops in some vehicles, and send them ahead fast...but keep them near cover. Recon Troops are Suicide Squads, but that doesn't mean you want to waste them. Recon will draw fire, but hopefully always be close enough to cover to survive.

Drawing fire actually is what shows you the enemy positions.

Favorite tactic of mine would be to drive the vehicles as far as safely possiple, keep them behind some obstacles, and then dismount the half squads and have them advance trough the obstacles.

Vehicles will always be easier spotted than infantry. Some people dont realize that when they first play CMBB. So if you use soft vehicles, try to keep them in cover. Or speed them trough possiple lines of fire. Dismount the infantry early enough - you dont want to see a squad blazing into flames when a truck gets hit by an HE-Gun.

For the defender, if you see scouts coming up - either motorized or on foot - make it a point to use the least possiple force to take them out. You dont want your full defense line to reveal themself just for one jeep. Once the scout is down, relocate the group/gun/ATR if you can. In a good defense network they should be able to sneak a little around without being seen.

Of course, an outpost line does not have to remain hidden for long. That's why you make them outposts firsthand.

So, the first "game in the game" usually will be scouts versus outpost lines. If the defender kills the scouts without revealing too much of his positions, he already is a good way into winning.

Contrary, if the attacking scouts get to see full incoming fire from the whole defense line, then they will be dead...but the defender has lost a major advantage.

As the attacker, once you have a first picture of the enemy defense outlay, you may want to somehow separate his defenses. Smoke works well for that. Or simple use landscape features. You want to attack that part of the defense that is weakest, and without the other sections partizipating.

Again, it comes down to local odds. If you manage to take on enemy troops bit by bit, with the full force of your own weapons, then you'll win.

Anyone having seen Band of Brothers should be familiar with this idea...the capture of the Guns in Normandy is a perfect example of rolling up a large defense force bit by bit from the side, using their own trenches while doing so.

So, the second "game in the game" is somehow managing local odds.

That's also the reason why you "keyhole" heavy weapons. If you place an AT-Gun on a hill, it will be able to fire on the whole map. But everyone will be able to fire back, too.

Contrary to that, if you place an AT-Gun at the end of a narrow street, then everyone entering at the other side of that street is toast - the gun also doesn't have to rotate very long, so it shoots quickler, too.

You dont want guns/HMGs that can be surrounded or fired at by 6, 7 enemy units at once.

How to break a Keyhole leads us to the third "game in the game" - for every nail the right hammer.

It may be pretty obvious, but many people still dont understand the concept when they first play CMBB - I didn't either.

But for every weapon on the battlefield, there's a perfect counter weapon. This is especially pronounced with mechanized infantry and tank support, as well as with Anti-Tank Guns and Maschineguns on the defense.

Simple as that:

You spot an ATG - You want an Infantry Platoon to take it out. Or, preferable, a mortar if you can get one. Yeah, ATGs still can shoot up infantry, and if they have russian canister rounds even more so - but they are not hard to surpress, and they dont fire while surpressed.

Or, the second case: You spot an HMG/heavy defended line of infantry trench - you want an armored car or tank to take it out. Or a mortar (they are REALLY usefull, huh?)

It's very basic, but fundamental to understand: Weapons that kill tanks make good infantry targets - weapons that kill infantry make good tank targets. There are a few exceptions, but ut generally holds true.

And here we have the most basic, most fundamental difficulty in combined arms. The defender wants to setup a screen that will interweave AT-Weapons with Anti-Personal weapons.

Likewise, the attacker wants to advance with a group of infantry and armored vehicles, carefully avoiding to serve the defender with the correct target type for his units.

So, that's it for now. I may edit the post later because I'm sure I'll come up with more basics.

The rules here should apply to all forms of Combat Mission (CMBO, CMBB, CMAK), or actually most Wargames out there.

[Flamethrowers vs. Armor]

Because the flameable liquid goes into engine grills, fireslits, exhaust ports etc...and then wrecks either the maschine or the crew.

There's a very good operation on the CMBB-CD, called "Penny Pockets". First Battle is set during the night, with german Paratroop Pioneers advancing against russian trench lines in heavy forrest. You get a LOT of use out of the FT Teams in such conditions - even on the advance. So, night and woods are favorable.

I also had one PBEM-Enemy roast a tank of mine when I went past the house he was in...a covered arc with a hide command will work nicely.

And I had another T-34 rolling straight past two of them hiding in a trench in broad daylight - sadly I forgot to give them covered arcs so they didn't fire.

So yeah, they are definitly usefull.

[The most fun I ever had in CMBB...]

Ah okay....that explains it then I guess.

[How do you attack a "keyholed" enemy?]

Actually, you should know best what works

I was refering to your "3rd Battle of Kharkov" scenario.

I actually found the city battle itself not too hard, but the advance to the edge of the building line was damned difficult.

Very well done scenario.

[How do you attack a "keyholed" enemy?]

Well, actually it may have been possiple to smoke just a few positions long enough to get infantry into the flank...

Yet, it certainly would not be easy. There are 200 meters bare ground in front of the first house row...that means getting there is not easy either.

Actually, the weather saved my day. At the third try the scenario was foggy, and I was thus able to get my troops in their own "keyhole" positions - and when the sun came out, the enemy was shot to pieces.

[How do you attack a "keyholed" enemy?]

I recently found out that City Streets and buildings (so they are quite rectangular built) serve very well as "Keyholes". That means the enemy has a few tanks/guns in there, and they all have their barrels aimed along the lanes towards the enemy.

Now, every tank entering that small field of fire will be knocked out in no time flat.

If I were playing russians, then I'd say tank-rush with superior numbers. Germans dont have that luxury - quite to the contrary the enemy will be keyholed AND outnumber them.

Not enough smoke shells either...

It is quite a weird situation when you actually HAVE scouted out the enemy tanks, then send your Panzer's forward with a "hull down" order, and even in hull down the enemy will get off the first few vital shots and inflict too many casualitys.

So, what is the correct procedure for attacking "keyholed" AT-Defenses when you can not outflank them?