Frunze
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Posts posted by Frunze
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I doubt it. When you target them near the TRP, does it say "boresighted"?
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Yeah, I was hoping that Tero wouldn't pull 'em back. As it was, I lost more Shermans than I should have taking out the first two Tigers. Sometimes they'd come into LOS accidentally while maneuvering into position, and sometimes I had trouble coordinating widely separated tanks to come into LOS at the same moment.Originally posted by Holien:Interesing point in the AAR of Frunze...
If the 1st 2 Tigers had been moved to a central position at the X roads, as mentioned by Frunze they are toast to a good Allied player.
If they stay with there backs up against the trees and on the slight rise / hill on the German right behind the left to right road they have great LOS and can stop an attack dead.
The only way they will lose there is if the Allied player gets lucky with a 76mm long shot (not good odds vs the 88 long range) or smoke is used to get them closer. Even then a Sherman rush has to be preformed well, very well....
H
I think if they'd pulled back to the ridge, my only chance of getting 'em woulda been to use smoke to move up the sides of the map. Which is what I did against the last two, and got one of them, but it woulda been harder against 4 tigers spaced along the ridge.
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If you give the "Move to Contact" order to the whole platoon at once (highlight the whole platoon, then give the order), then the whole platoon will stop at once. If you give it to each squad individually, each will stop individually.
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This one turned out to be almost like two separate battles going on at the same time: Tigers vs. Shermans and zooks, and infantry vs. infantry. One tiger and two Shermans were left at the end, and I had less total infantry than my opponent, as I took a lot of casualties wiping out the first line of infantry. (My tanks were little help with that, since I was concentrating on the Tigers with them.)
I used a lot of smoke to let me take on the Tigers one or two at a time. First arty smoke on one Tiger at the crossroads, letting me come at the second from several directions. Then moved up close on the one at the crossroad, with an assist from a squad and a 'zook.
Two more Tigers moving up by then, but the smoke kept 'em out of the action.
Then tank smoke covering the gaps between the trees, letting me move Shermans and infantry up the sides while the Tigers stayed in the middle, near the second flag. I even moved one Sherman around behind the woods there, which was a mistake, it got killed. But Tero had to move one of the Tigers back to do it, so I was able to get the other by itself again, coming at it from different sides.
Ended up a draw with a slight advantage to Tero. I held the first flag, the second was neutral.
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This is the one scenario where I really got whupped (by Holien.) The 150mmm was decisive. I concentrated my forces too much to try to contain and possibly wipe out his initial salient, and the arty hurt me bad. Even squads in heavy buildings could be hurt if a shell landed close to the outer wall.
The other major factor in my decision to withdraw off-map, rather than try to hold one VL, was the StuGs. They hadn't really come into play in a big way, but they were about to. I'd lost all three AT guns - artillery being a major factor here, as well as my overambitious push up the right flank.
My initial deployments were too focused on a possible push down the center road, and I left one gap that Holien found, as described in his AAR. My initial plan did correctly involved gradually falling back from one line of buildings to the next, with MGs already in place at the next - but I didn't actually do that.
On the bright side, once I decided to retreat, I got most of my remaining forces off, except some MGs and zooks that got killed or captured delaying pursuit. Nobody left to autosurrender at the end. Even got the mortars off. And the casualty ratio wasn't actually that horrible.
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Also, this works for the TacAI of the human player as well as for the computer opponent. So it's not such an advantage for the computer opponent. But maybe that's not what you meant.Originally posted by xerxes:The AI has a better ability then a player to determine enemy troop quality/HQs etc. That's why a sniper will target a HQ when you (the player) haven't ID'ed the HQ.
Doesn't seem right.
But, then again, having the AI have more information that isn't shared with the player is a reasonable method of reducing borg spotting effects.
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What does RHA stand for?
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I didn't know automatic cease-fire was possible. There's nothing about it in the manual.
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My AAR for this scenario is posted in the ROW AAR thread.
Ali, I'd guess your opponent unhid the guns, none of mine fired until I wanted them to. I probably would have unhid them in that situation too, rather than let enemy infantry get into the woods and storm the gun.
BigX, that sounds pretty strange to me. Usually, when one side surrenders(automatically or voluntarily), the other gets all the flags.
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Yeah, the manual seems to mean the hill on the left. And when it talks about having the tank-riding infantry search the woods, it means the woods in front of that hill. Found that out the hard way.
I had a hard time getting my tanks over to that hill on time - one of them got bogged in the trees near the start position when I tried to use Fast Move as recommended. Maybe better to stay in open ground as much as possible, and hunt through trees?
Anyway, I also got whaled the first time I tried it, and haven't tried it again yet.
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Here's my AAR for Head for the Hills, which I played as Germans:
Setup: I make two boneheaded mistakes during setup. Tired, I guess.
One, I don't even notice the barbed wire and mines in the back right corner. Possibly these should start in a more obvious location.
Two, I overemphasize the possibility of an attack up the center. Sure, the center is far more tank-friendly, but the 88s adequately guard against that, and the title of this scenario is excellent advice for the attacker. I don't guard the far left flank at all, even with scouts. (The screening-element setup zones don't extend that far.)
I leave the 88s and the TRP in the default positions. Company HQs are put in command of two of them.
On each side of the map, one SS platoon and one Volssturm platoon in the woods on each side, the SS platoon closer to the center. (On the right, the Volssturm platoon is near the map edge.) Volkssturm platoon C in the village, and Platoon D in a patch of woods in the right center (in front of the two 88s close together.)
Most of the HMGs and a mortar in the woods to the right, positioned to fire towards the center. Shrecks are mostly placed with the infantry.
Possibly the setup zones for the main forces were too far back - I did little fighting from these initial positions. Then again, it was better to do most of the fighting farther back in the woods.
Turns 1-5: Enemy forces begin attacking my left-side screening elements, attempting to move into the left-center woods. Fortunately, this is where my left-side forces are deployed. The sharpshooters are forced to bug out quickly, (one getting killed) but the LMGs last quite a while, with some high-caliber artillery being wasted on one of them. One LMG kills a Jeep. The enemy advance is slow, despite the light opposition I'm putting up.
3 Shermans are to the left of the road. One of them moves up a little, comes into LOS of a right-forward 88, and is killed. The 88 immediately knocks out a mortar that was targeting it, then plays hell with the enemy infantry. Small-caliber artillery begins falling around it, to no effect. Right side HMGs and one mortar are also hitting at advancing enemy infantry. The other Shermans not in position to do much to my forces, so they knock down some buildings in the village. One HMG suffers 3 casualties in a collapsing building, and I pull Volkssturm platoon C back to
the far end of the village, where the Shermans can't get LOS.
On turn one, I split one Volkssturm squad from Platoon I and run them left as scouts, to warn me of enemy forces moving up there. The leftmost one is killed running toward the map edge, spotting only one enemy unit. There could easily be more, though, and I have nothing to spare for hunting them. I order Volkssturm platoon D to head left, crossing behind the village and successfully staying out of the line of fire. A sharpshooter and a 'shreck unit are sent to search the woods, as I have nobody else available for this purpose. I relocate a mortar to hit 'em if they break out the back of the left woods.
My opponent seems completely certain that I have no tanks, as he is using bazookas against my infantry. Even if intelligence told him I didn't have any, he shouldn't place such total confidence in it.
Turns 6-10:
Enemy platoons appear on the right side. My sharpshooters bug out. No LMGs in that area. Two half-squads at the edge give him a little trouble, take casualties, then panic. I begin moving up the pioneer platoon.
Just as the first units make it into the woods, Volkssturm platoon B and SS Platoon F arrive, hitting them hard at close range. My standard tactic in deep woods, which I used throughout this game, is to advance with the "sneak" order, with the squads in a line, 10 to 15 meters apart, and the HQ a short distance behind.
I count three units eliminated, a firefight begins across the open area. The enemy is supported by MGs and mortars. A flamethrower on area fire torches some woods by the right map edge, scaring off the remainder of the Volkssturm platoon. I kill the flamethrower. The SS platoon is substantially intact, but now on its own.
My 88 continues its reign of terror against the enemy's right for a couple more turns, killing more infantry and a halftrack - with area fire as its slightly out of LOS - before the 81mm artillery finally does it in. My left screening elements are finally killed off, and the enemy makes it into the edge of the woods. I sneak my two platoons toward them. Volkssturm platoon I, supported by a company HQ and HMG I've moved to the edge of the woods, kills a platoon HQ that is unaccountably out front, move out into a narrow neck of woods, and get into a close range firefight with the rest of the platoon. SS platoon G, in the patch of woods immediately left and forward of the village, are just beginning to make contact.
I've used the same trick on both flanks - hitting infantry with my infantry immediately after they enter the woods - and it's worked on both, but especially on the right.
Enemy Shermans begin moving up through dead ground just to the left (my left) of the road. I begin an overly elaborate maneuver, moving shrecks from the left back, across the road behind the village, and forward through trees just to the right of the road. There is no LOS across the road, no enemy infantry in that area, and I hope to run across the road and catch the Shermans up close.
I finally locate theleft-map-edge infiltration force, near the back of the woods. I lose a sharpshooter for this intel, dammit. D Platoon begins moving toward them.
Turns 11-15:
I successfully disengage my right-flank troops, and deploy to defend near the map edge. (If the enemy advances any further left, my 88 across the way will be able to hit 'em.) Pioneers continue to move up slowly.
The Shermans manage to get LOS to a point near Volssturm Platoon I on my left, and hurt them with area fire. SS Platoon G are simply faced with excessive numbers. Both withdraw, leaving the HMG to be killed. Again, the Volkssturm are in pretty bad shape, and the SS substantially intact. They regroup near the flag in the woods. Two enemy flamethrowers are dead, but not a lot of other good news here.
Two 'shrecks complete the overly elaborate maneuver, arriving across the road from the Shermans. Two more are in the woods to the left of the road & village. (Enemy infantry is nearby, but hasn't bothered to search this area of woods.) Geronimo! Simultaneous attack on turn 15. The two 'shrecks running across the road come under fire from the enemy's left infantry, and panic. (No HQ unit was available to support this gamble.) The two on the left, though, simply stand up and fire. They miss their first shots. The Shermans begin backing up. Then one Sherman goes up in flames, then the other. Yes!
I now know the left-flank infiltration force is at least 4 units. Platoon D engages them at about 40 meters, after getting behind the enemy as they head towards the open ground behind the left woods. A bazooka team is killed, and a firefight follows with two "Infantry Squad?s". I put the mortar across the way on area fire. One squad? crawls away from my platoon, and the other is taking casualties and goes prone. The 88 across the way can't get a shot at them yet, though.
By turn 14, my opponent seems to be changing plans. On my left, all his units are being concentrated in the woods to the left of the village. On the right, one platoon is moving towards the road, possibly to join them. The other infantry, and one flamethrower, on the right is heading into the woods. The MGs and mortars on the right mostly remain close to the map edge. If he's shifting to more limited objectives, the loss of the tanks will surely move him even more in this direction.
Turns 16-20: Reinforcements arrive turn 16. I begin moving the 75mm up towards where the 88 used to be, and send the Marder and trucks-carrying-infantry around to the left of the rear hill. It's slow going, and I run into the "you can't get there from here" problem with woods, slope, etc. Eventually, I send the infantry on foot across to the left hill, and move the Marder around to the right of the rear hill, the only way out of the maze for a vehicle.
I tell my 'shrecks to bug out, of course, but the two on my left don't make it out. My opponent sends a whole platoon after 'em, closely bunched. This is too tempting a target for me, and my opponent's infantry superiority in this local area has me a little worried, so I unhide another 88 to fire at them. Not sure how much damage it does.
The enemy infiltration force attempts to run away across the open space behind the left hill, and is quickly finished off, with a little (unnecessary it turns out) help from an 88 across the way: it turned out to be one infantry squad, a company HQ, and two 'zooks. Volkssturm platoon D, tasked with taking them out, are almost unharmed, but have used most of their ammo. I send them over to guard the one 88 on the left hill.
That's two 88s unhidden and active now, plus one knocked out. I set one of them on the platoon attempting to make it across the road. They take casualties, some squads seem panicked, and with help from the HMGs on my right they are pinned near the road. Three heavy weapons teams also attempt to move from my opponent's left to his right, and the 88 causes them some trouble as well.
I begin a counteroffensive against my opponents weakened left. What's left of Volkssturm Platoon B moves up on the far right, and trade fire with infantry moving up a little to their left. Then SS Platoon F comes up right in front of them. Intense firefight, enemy wiped out. Meanwhile, flamethrower makes it into woods near B Platoon, causing much consternation but no casualties.
Pioneers finally arrive to the left of Platoon F, taking on an enemy MG and bazooka at close range with predictable results.
Enemy infantry and MGs mass in woods adjacent to village, a few units begin moving in to forward part of it. Remaining half-MG team puts up good fight, but succumbs to mass fire. The two 88s cause some trouble - small-cal artillery begins falling around one of them, causing two casualties and some suppression.
On my left, SS Platoon G is pulled back to woods behind village. Remnants of Volkssturm Platoon I unfit for heavy combat, so I send them up past enemy's nonexistent right flank protection, to get into his rear and kill mortars, crews, and FOs. They bypass MG and take out mortar. On turn 20, high-cal spotting round falls near 'em.
Turns 21-25: Lose 88 to light artillery. Unhide two more to hit infantry moving into village: I knock down some buildings and I know I'm hurting 'em. But then I lose both to high-cal artillery, and the two remaining don't have LOS to do much. Clearly I unhid them too soon.
Platoon C is still hidden in two rearmost buildings of village, mostly in the church.
Reinforcement platoon J finally arrives in woods, weary. Marder still on move toward village. FO drops a few rounds on woods where enemy concentrated.
Platoon I continues towards enemy rear, but is hit by artillery and infantry fire (it's a distraction, anyway) and loses Platoon HQ. Two half squads, basically, make it to rear woods. Crew are being moved to block 'em - to protect FOs?
On the right, flamethrower is killed, and remnant enemy infantry. Continue forward. Next target: MGs by map edge, the turn and move toward road, where enemy platoon is still stalled. SS Platoon F few casualties but out of ammo, no more fighting for them. Bring shrecks with counteroffensives in case of enemy tank reinforcements.
Turns 26-30:
Counteroffensive continues on right, captures last men of two MG teams - one of them killed after. Killer will probably claim he threw grenade before surrender, but have doubts. SS Bastards. Right flank forces then proceed, engage platoon stalled by road.
My FO drops remaining shells on patch of trees near road, which I suspect contains FOs. Later, part of Platoon B makes it across road, confirms one dead FO. The other is spotted running forward, trying to get LOS to 88. It's TacAI responds by dropping smoke on it.
The pitiful remnants of Platoon I tangle with about 5 crews and one mangled infantry squad. They quickly run out of ammo. Only one man left by the end of turn 30, but enemy taking casualties/running off map also.
Remaining 88s can't get LOS to much, but at least enemy FOs having the same problem: both stay alive.
Enemy continued through village until they run into Platoon C, which holds its fire a little too well and finds itself in close-range firefight. Which it wins, as its completely fresh. At least three enemy units, including FO, spotted in two-story building. Marder and leftmost 88 demolish that building, killing FO and rifle squad as D and G Platoons run into trees near rear end of village. Then 88 knocks over another building, but enemy units run out. Not much left of the village we're fighting over.
Enemy forces remaining in village seem mostly bits and pieces, but more substantial forces remain in woods nearby, providing cover fire. Reinforcement Platoon J has been slowly and wearily moving (not running) through woods and rough to hit them from the side.
It was my plan for some time to allow the enemy into the village so I could mangle them with the 88s, but it hasn't worked out perfectly due to enemy artillery. I'm concerned now about whether there's enough time to evict them before the end of the game.
Turns 31-35:
I send a pioneer squad recklessly towards the smoke to kill that FO. Recklessly 'cause there's a remnant of an enemy squad there too. The FO runs forward farther, trying to get LOS to a gun. I adjust movement orders. The pioneer squad gets gunned down completely. Dammit! Thought that enemy squad was in worse shape morale-wise. Fortunately the 88 kills the FO before the FO can kill it. The rest of the Pioneers finish off enemy platoon by road.
The last of Platoon I is killed, leaving a few enemy soldiers still there. I send part of Platoon B over, intending to finish 'em off.
My forces advance through village, clearing back end of enemy forces and moving towards the other end, killing a Battallion HQ among other units. They come under fire mostly from enemy in woods. Marder attempts to suppress with last bit of pitifully small HE load then inefffectively with AP shells. I'm taking casualties due to excessive haste.
Then reinforcement platoon J completes sweep through woods, hits enemy forces from side. They take casualties, possibly because they're still tired, but wipe out everything that comes within their reach.
Turn 36: The enemy surrenders! They've really been through the meatgrinder, with almost nothing left. I discover Platoon B just walked by an AT gun in the woods....
Allied Attacker: 380 casualties, 95 KIA, 56 captured, 4 mortars, 1 gun, and 5 vehicles knocked out. Men OK: 21. Score:27
Axis Defender: 169 casualties, 41 KIA, 4 guns knocked out, 1 vehicle knocked out, (a truck was abandoned, I'm not sure why.) Men OK: 209. Score 73.
Allied surrender, Axis major victory.
An excellent scenario.
[ September 29, 2002, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: Frunze ]
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Evil. But good. I won, as Germans, but took too many casualties. My opponents (Jazza, replaced by Carrot) played cautiously- I never even saw the tanks - but did make a small counterattack on the middle hill, which got nowhere despite the hash his arty had made of the forces on that hill.
I also found my guns didn't survive long, except one 75mm that musta been out of LOS of the mortars. Foxholes would be nice.
I used the rockets on the middle hill, which worked a little, but I think I shoulda used 'em on the town as the briefing suggested. The reinforcement rockets, I did target on the town, and found out after I killed a Sherman.
I took both the hill and Lucio early, didn't worry much about defending the town I started with, and had a medium-successful ambush of the convoy. I setup one gun to supporting the ambush, but it didn't do that much - fixated on an MG on the hill, dammit, then died after a couple turns. A couple halftracks actually made it across the bridge.
I found my reinforcements had nothing to do, since I'd already taken Lucio (the briefing suggested it was a good idea to take it before the showed up). I tried to take a couple more towns, but no time to even get near 'em.
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I tied this scenario as Germans, and thought I was doing well given the attacker's 5 tanks to my two. Clearly not, though, looking at the rankings - I'm at minus 5.94.
I traded my AT gun for one. The arrival location of the StuGs gave me some trouble, enemy infantry was already pushing into that area and I lost one to a PIAT. The other StuG took out one tank and gun damaged another. That left two tanks, and my shrecks never managed to do anything.
Clearly, I shoulda held fire with the AT gun 'til I could use it together with the StuGs, but what else should I have done? How did German players take out all those tanks?
Oh yeah - one thing I did right is put the mines in the gap in the bocage by the right map edge. (My right.) Stopped the first Polish push.
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The title of this scenario is really good advice for the attacker, I think, after playing it as defender. Go through the woods, even though the tanks, mortars and MGs won't be able to help you after a certain point. (They will help you deal with anyone who tries to fight you across the open space, though. Most of my infantry fighting was done up-close in the woods, and like Scott B says, the veteran SS did really well despite being SMG-light.) Then come up behind the 88s.
If the attackers make the mistake of going down the center, or into the village, the 88s will slaughter them. Which is what I did as defender, just as Kunstler and CombinedArms said.
I unhid my 88s a little early, though, and lost some of 'em to heavy artillery. But they did enough damage first to let me wipe out Redwolf. There wasn't much left of the village.
The first 88 I unhid took out a tank, two mortars trying to kill it, and a bunch of infantry. It survived several turns of 81mm artillery, and on its last turn took out an out-of-LOS halftrack with nearby area fire.
Even if the attacker takes the hill on his right, 88s on the rear hill could possibly bottle him up there. (I was interested to hear that Ted took a tank all the way through there. Where were the 'shrecks?) So it makes a big difference that setup compels him to split his troops, rather than make one big attack up the left. Redwolf tried to move some of his forces from his left over to his right, but an 88 put a stop to that.
Scott, I agree with your analysis, and it's a great scenario. One small suggestion: the setup zones for the German screening elements should extend all the way to the (German) left map edge...Redwolf snuck around me there. Well, that was mostly my fault, the main force setup zones do go that far IIRC.
Redwolf, I wish you'd stop saying you played awfully, it takes all the glory out of my victory...seriously, you made mistakes but none of them were truly boneheaded.
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Combined Arms, I think we may all end up using your methods in CMBB. At least based on my experience with Yelnia, I don't see how anyone could get a half-squad or tank hunter team to keep going far enough forward to spot enemy positions.
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I've had the same problem Redwolf describes, even when trying to move into large patches of trees. If an enemy unit is visible way off to the side...sometimes I'm not even sure why the troops stopped.
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No, no. He was going to invade Kuwait in August 1990, but his tanks lacked the proper "rhino teeth" equipment to get through the bocage, and got stuck on the way to the border. They continued trying to get through until 1991, when Hussein gave up and decided to have a domestic invasion instead.Originally posted by John Kettler:MrSpkr,
While your exegesis on Soviet bocage secret weapons is beyond fascinating, I feel compelled to question
your assertion that Saddam Hussein invaded Iraq in 1991. Try Kuwait as a substitute invasion objective.
Regards,
John Kettler
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I'll play. The e-mail address you have for me is still good.
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As I understand it, the difference between "Hunt" and "move to contact" is only that "move to contact" means the tank will stop after acquiring any target, even an infantry unit.
With "hunt" it would stop after spotting a tank or gun, as in CMBO.
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You can tell your tank to target the other one at the beginning of the turn, even if it's not in LOS. This helps a little - but will hurt if it unexpectedly has to target another tank. A moving tank has a spotting disadvantage compared to a stationary tank.
Why you didn't get hull-down - as your tank didn't spot the enemy right away, possibly it kept going past the hull-down position. Or maybe the hill is just the wrong shape, I dunno.
I think the targeting command, but not the LOS command, will tell you if you're hull down, even if it's an area target or an infantry unit.
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With such a large quantity of low-quality infantry, a broad-front advance - spread across the whole width of the map - actually worked better for me than anything more sophisticated. With the area-effect of the MGs, it helped to avoid bunching troops. Didn't move a whole platoon at one time, either.
Some of the squads, even the Green ones sometimes (in C&C?) have the Advance command, use it.
MGs and mortars kept back and firing at sound contacts if I had nothing else. Helped suppress 'em some, although I used up a lot of ammo. Mostly saved the tanks for later.
Major victory, although middle flag still disputed at end, low casualties though I don't remember exact number, no tanks lost. One gun actually opened up on my infantry when they got close.
This was my second try, with AI "free to place units" - don't know if that made it easier or harder.
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Ida know, most of the CMBB forum seems to be bug reports.
Just put in the thread title whether it's CMBO or CMBB, what's the problem?
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I don't really understand how this prep barrage function could be used effectively. Before the battle starts, how can you know where the defenders' positions are? Do you just blast the whole map indiscriminately, or areas where the defender seems likely to set up?
IRL, of course, there'd be surveillance and scouting before the battle, but is that modeled in CM?
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Seems to me, Kip, that this would apply only when the Red Army knew the time and place of a tank attack. And even though they placed a high priority on recon/surveillance/razvezda, and in some (not all, maybe not most) situations the terrain dictates a limited number of good routes of attack, still surprises and chaos are part of the nature of war, and nothing ever goes entirely according to doctrine.
Your comments and JasonC's actually tie together in one respect: you point out that AT guns freed up armor for other tasks. This could include the armor reserves JasonC identifies as of primary importance.
[ August 30, 2002, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: Frunze ]
Hull down position? Q, with screen
in Combat Mission Archive #4 (2002)
Posted
Yeah, that's right.
And the best way to find out if you've successfully achieved hull-down is with the LOS or Targeting command. It'll tell you if the tank's hull-down on the area it's targeting.