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Sardaukar

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Posts posted by Sardaukar

    Hello? Is this thing on?

    in Combat Mission Campaigns

    Posted

    Originally posted by DOBERmann:

    think CMC is a fake and the admins here make a joke with us paying user's !! its a shame !!!

    Bit unfair. First of all, you don't pay posting to their forum. They do pay to provide that ability for customers to do so.

    On the other hand, silence is ominous and they should close this forum. Vaporware is vaporware.

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    Stop Attacking Battlefront

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    One problem is that CM:SF is already in "bargain bin" in many places. That is going to really hurt future sales, no matter how well it'll be patched in future. And in current form, it does deserve it's status.

    I do hope patch 1.04 will remedy most of the things and 1.05 the rest. Problem is that it's too late. New customers who were interested about game most likely have moved away..since basicly, game goes not work as advertized right now. Secondly, at least I feel so, loyal customer base was not too impressed. One can deduct it from traffic on this forum compared to previous releases.

    I still own products like Over the Reich, Achtung Spitfire, CMBO, CMBB, CMAK and I love them. I don't play CMBO much because of very good refinements made in CMAK, but still now and then. Also OTR/AS have their own problems, but all of those games and many more always worked as advertized.

    Try as I like to like it (and I'm not averse to RT games like Shogun/Rome/Medieval Total War etc.), CMSF is not a good game. User interface is bad, game is pre-release-state still and many design decisions are like custom-made to alienate old customer base.

    I do wish BFC will survive this experience and continue to make games I'd enjoy.

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    Nahverteidigungswaffe

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    I still remember experience from old CMBO game versus my friend. I had late Panther to get accidentally too close to his infantry (Brit Engineer squad, IIRC). I was thinking " O hell, my Cat is toast!"

    Then there was couple of small black spots in air..and suddenly both (since suddenly another assaulting Brit squad appeared) enemy squads lost interest (and men) to assault my Panther.

    I was impressed then and still remember it. Never paid any attention to N-waffe, but it saved my Panther crew to not to become a bacon in that smile.gif

    What was impressive in TacAI that day that it did not bother to try to get MGs or main gun to bear..it was N-waffe grenades and reverse.

    There was and are some gripes about TacAI even after CMAK, but damn, they were good and groundbreaking that time.

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    i think my enjoyment of CMSF is starting to drop

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    My thoughts exactly, sgtgoody.

    What was very good TacAI in CM1 certainly is not enough for real-time game depicting individual soldiers. Since TacAI has not evolved to level needed, what's the point of patches even ? Fundamentally game would need scale better AI than abstracted squads in CM1-series.

    I'd have bought Combat Mission Campaigns any time over this. That would have added what is missing and missed by many, campaign play. Pity that seems to be vaporware. With this sort of performance, CMx2-games might become vaporware too...since after CMSF (I would describe it as Beta Demo at best), it just might be very hard to regain customer trust.

    Hell, I got lot more enjoyment and play value out of CMBO Gold Demo years ago than I get from CMSF.

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    it's been 7 months Hunter

    in Combat Mission Campaigns

    Posted

    Well...CMSF made me lose my faith on BFC..and I was their customer since Over the Reich-times when they were BigTimeSoftware.

    Now I think it'll take long time and very very good product to have me buy another game from them. That is also quite similar opinion to my wargaming buddies.

    Well..they can have their "new loyal customer base". They certainly lost lot of old-timers who always bought product from them because it was BTS/BFC and thus guaranteed to be good.

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    Why don't my troops follow my orders? (the fluffy version)

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    Originally posted by dalem:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Redwolf:

    There is a huge crowd here who defines reality to be whatever is in the currently newest CMxx patch. It hasn't been any different in the past. The same people who argued that CMBO infantry behaves fine when running towards a HMG turned around and declared CMBB/CMAK's HMG model to be the holy grail despite obvious problems, and it took them all of 4 weeks to do that swing.

    And they are willing to shut up people who say otherwise by all means necessary.

    It's a big problem, and they do considerable damage to the game. Bugs needs fixes, but bugs need hard evidence and be reproducible to get fixed. Reducing all discussions to fluffy talk won't get any bugs fixed.

    Well, some of us old farts don't have the game and/or are getting sick of getting told to go away. smile.gif

    -dale </font>

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    March to slaughter, my mindless automatons!

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    The_Capt is zealot trying to intimidate others.

    If he really would be Captain in most militaries (army or navy..there is big differece... ;) ), his manner would be different. Especially his tendency to attack someone's person instead of his/her facts is both very unintelligent and conduct unsuitable for an officer.

    But see..here I am, making a personal attack...so....

    Regards,

    Mika "Sardaukar" Sihto

    0

    The funny thing is that just about everything in CMx2 was requested by CMx1 players.

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    Originally posted by Battlefront.com:

    Actually, check that. From what I can tell the people opposed to the changes in CM:SF wanted CMAK with CMBO setting. Great, we sell a few copies and go out of business. Hmm... perhaps that is why we didn't go that route? Could be :D Could also be that it would have been so boring, so unchallenging to us that we'd rather have stuck forks in our eyes instead. Without the passion and drive to work we'd just pack up and do something else with our time.

    Steve

    Well...I hope that is not what is happening to CMSF...sell a few copies and go out of business. I have difficulties to imagine the appeal of this game to either hard-core CM1 players or "new crowd". But that's just my impression.

    And I have been wrong many times in past... ;) Used to be against 3D model during old forums when you were called BTS and CM was called Beyond Squad Leader. Wanted counters and whatnot... :D :cool:

    I promise to give CMSF a good consideration after few patches more. Currently it's just annoying me. My "suspension of disbelief" is bit strained watching 1:1 presentation doing what the units do now.

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    March to slaughter, my mindless automatons!

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    Originally posted by Londoner:

    Er utterly flawed, CM is not Tacops. Example, I have ordered a squad to make a dash across a street. I know there is a MG 200 metres distant that has LOS on the road. I do not want this squad to cancel my order, lie in the road and open fire on a well protected MG 200 metres distant! Hell I don't even want them to waste ammo in wild return fire as they make their dash. I want them across the road as quickly as possible into that cosy looking house! Yes this situation arose in a recent game and I'm happy to say they did just that, even if it did cost them a man! [/QB]

    That's why they have different SOPs to choose. If you want your unit react certain way, you give different SOP in TacOps. Whole point would be moot if there was just one SOP...it'd be same as CMSF tongue.gif
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    March to slaughter, my mindless automatons!

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    Originally posted by The_Capt:

    Mr Billy,

    Rather than us continuing to banter back and forth I have run some test and simply put, you are your own victim.

    Not only does the "quick" around a corner mean suicide in real life and CMSF but it will yield the exact same result in CMx1.

    As soon as I get some pics I will post them but let me describe the results;

    In real life; not a modern military on the planet would prescribe running your troops around a blind corner. Particularly against another section covering said corner and in anything that come close to a prepared position.

    In the game they are lying in the middle of the road but in reality they would be finding cover of some sort, covering arcs and if they are smart holding their fire. What you see as your troops get slaughtered is a section in ambush at very close range...very bad in any reality.

    I had a lengthy post that would try to explain to you how this could happen in reality but then a simple fact dawned on me...this is game and no matter what we may think or want it will be an abstraction from real life. It will mirror realistic effects but never be 100% complete.

    So let me close the real world discussion by stating simply that your tactics would not work and you would get at best half of your section wiped out and probably the entire lot against any opponent who knows what they are doing. If you don't believe me sign up, spend 20 yrs in and then get back to me.

    So onto CMSF. I ran a series of tests (scenario file avail on request) with a regular section coming around a blind corner and tried different combos to see how they fair. A single waypoint cutting the corner and quick is a disaster pretty much as you describe. The section gets blitzed. I will admit the visual is a little silly but the result is realistic....a lot if not all of your troops dead.

    So I decided to try and apply a little common sense to the problem and added a couple of waypoints around that corner, here things get a little better. The troops still get whacked but they take longer to do it as the reorient at each waypoint, this means more time for you to hit the halt button.

    Then I thought maybe some more realistic tactics might work..so I quick-moved them just to the edge of the corner and switched them to hunt in two waypoints around the corner. The result was solid. My troops covered the clear ground quickly and then moved cautiously past the cover line of the coner, they came under fire, took two casualties and quickly regrouped back under cover.

    I tried this several times and in each instance so long as you switch the section to hunt prior to the enemy sightline you will take far fewer casualties and your troops will fall back.

    I will write up some quick rules to live by in urban ops as they relate to CMSF, but what I have found is that if you use real world tactics they will work, to a degree in the game. More on that later and it will be posted in the tactics section.

    "Micromanagement!!" You will no doubt cry...in fact you already have once. Well for a laugh I reloaded CMAK v 1.03 and set up an identical (well as close as I could) test of a US section coming around a blind corner against an Axis Airborne section at a range of about 10m(keep in mind scales are different for CMx1 and the buildings are all semi-transparent).

    If you thought the CMSF result was entertaining. Using "run" the US section was wiped out without seeing the enemy section in about a second. Then I tried "advance". The US section lasted a little longer but still got killed very quickly.

    So then for a laugh I tried "Contact" and guess what the US section noticed the Axis squad early and actually managed to return fire and only took 3 casualties.

    So Mr Billy and friends, I am not sure why you are surprised. In CMx1, which to the man you all sing praises to, your tactic will get your squad killed even faster (damn near instantly actually) than in CMSF. You will need to plot your sections with the same level of detail as CMx1 in order to keep them alive.

    So again I ask, why is CMSF "unplayable" but CMx1 was "great" if under near identical situations, you get the same result?

    I am going to package my report to Steve and the band with the clear conclusion that this is not a bug. It could stand to be visually portrayed better. But the results are consistant with CMx1 and real world expected results.

    So I will clarify my point on you, Mr Billy, being a "whiner" with an axe to grind against BFC, who takes every opportunity to slag CMSF..even when it is performing nearly identically to CMx1.

    You may or may not be as I describe above. So until I can build a stronger case and not risk slagging a possibly innocent man, I will retract any statements that may have painted you in such a light.

    You are in fact a very bad CMSF player. With practice, some study and a little help perhaps you can change that.

    It's quite interesting that only one person on this thread resorting to personal insults is you...

    In CM1 abstractions are acceptable, because squads were abstracted. In CMSF, they are not abstracted. Thus, increasing the detail without increasing the ability of TacAI is bad design decision. If you are right and it's not a bug...then it's design decision...

    One constructive post in this topic was from redwolf..and it's some food for thought. If TacOps can use "SOP-orders when contact is made", why not CMSF ?

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    March to slaughter, my mindless automatons!

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    Originally posted by Redwolf:

    This is another point where I think CMx2 is overengineered.

    From incoming fire you either get what is described here, an inappropriate attempt to continue to follow your orders.

    Or you get automatically given other orders, such as the (in-)famous "crawl of death", or auto-sneak-exhaustion like I like to call it.

    I don't see anything wrong with reacting to incoming fire by just canceling or suspending all player orders, not give any new orders either, lay down where they are and return fire. Give it a little timeout so that you can then give orders to crawl out if you want and they don't get instantly canceled.

    And I don't make this up, it is tested and works well. What I describe is what TacOps does and I think it is very elegant and straightforward, realistic and useful.

    Agreed. I think also that when modelling individual soldiers, they somehow forgot to dedicate appropriate CPU cycles to do it... TacAI needs to be multitude more powerful in this case. Since it's not..results can be seen by everyone.
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    Here is how bad the movement code actually is, and it's not just "pathfinding"

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    Originally posted by Rollstoy:

    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sardaukar:

    State of the CMSF seems to be pre-beta to me, compared to other BFC releases.

    BFC was forced to release CMSF prematurely, and already told us so, so your judgement is correct. It is not up to me to judge whether this is a clever act on behalf of the publisher, or BFC, but it is their risk and their decision. Surely, clever minds have weighted the advantages and disadvantages?!?

    However, in the absence of any comparable product I suggest we sit out the patches and see what comes out in the end.

    Personally, I already had enough fun with the game as it is. You learn to adapt your orders to the pathfinding weaknesses pretty fast.

    Best regards,

    Thomm </font>

    0

    Here is how bad the movement code actually is, and it's not just "pathfinding"

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    I gave quite extensive play to my buddy's CMSF last weekend..and I found the state of pathfinding and TacAI appalling.

    I do thank BigTimeSoftware/Battlefront for producing great games that I have enjoyed years and years. Value for my money has been very good.

    State of the CMSF seems to be pre-beta to me, compared to other BFC releases. If trying to model individual soldiers, TacAI needs to be multitude better, ditto with pathfinding.

    And I wonder how the hell they came to conclusion to use UI like this ? Totally remapped hotkeys (great idea...) and there is no real shorcut to get fast commands out until you memorize new hotkeys. Is that to increase the chaos of battle by forcing player to not be able to input orders ?

    Has the hubris from previous games gotten into BFC ? Because otherwise I cannot understand why things are like this, after years of very good quality.

    0

    What a difference about 2 years makes

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    I have had many BFC products, starting from Over the Reich. I am big fan of CMBO/BB/AK (even though rarely play first after CMAK).

    Had just a try with CMSF and can agree with sandy.

    Game looks like lot of lessons learned with interface has been thrown away. Why fix something that was not broken ?

    To me, after CM1-series, CMSF is big disappointment...real let-down compared to unpatched CMBO-release. Game is realy alienating to lot of people that formed existing CM1-customer base. Fine, if BFC thinks they can fill that with RT-players. But since interface is designed so unintuitively, RT play suffers too.

    After spending some time staring in amusement to Stryker trying to figure out which side of lamp post it should circle to present it's rear to enemy...me not amused. Pathfinding has not been this bad even when CM1-series was it's worst...and this is second patch.

    And I find it really strange how BFC-officials deride people that have, IMHO, good reasons to complain. That is not they way to keep your customers.

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    Shockforce, the RTS.

    in Combat Mission Shock Force 1

    Posted

    Exel has very valid points.

    And "official" response is far cry from when company was still BigTimeSoftware..and was developing "Beyond Squad Leader", that later evolved to CM:BO.

    Telling customers that they cannot operate interface correctly is bad business. I'm passing this game firstly because of reasons stated by Exel. Secondly, it's not good game like predecessors.

    Regards,

    Mika

    0

    Turret Mantlets

    in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps

    Posted

    There is quite good discussion about Tiger mantlet here:

    http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=23;t=009899

    Quote from rexford:

    "While the Tiger is a 1942 tank, the mantlet armor would not be matched or exceeded by very many turreted tanks during the war.

    The Tiger mantlet ranges in effective thickness from 135mm to 197mm (while the minimum thickness is 97mm on the upper and lower edges, that armor is backed up by a spaced 100mm armor area), and is only exceeded by:

    King Tiger

    Jumbo Sherman

    Super Pershing"

    As it's said, most tanks had quite a large hole in turret front, covered by mantlet. Tiger had it backed up with armour.

    Cheers,

    M.S.

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