LuckyShot
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Posts posted by LuckyShot
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Rommel22,
I don't pretend to speak for tiger, and excuse the cliche, But it isn't really about what program you have. Any paint program will do - Corel Paint I believe has some of the 'high end' functions that favorites like Paint Shop Pro and Photoshop have, so I think you should be fine with that. You may also be able to get Light or Trial versions of those latter two I mentioned.
Basically though, just start doing it - if you find you are hindered by the software, THEN it maybe it's time to look around for something else.
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Transparency on buildings is do-able, but looks stupid as you don't see the interior. You see whatever is behind the building, sort of like a Hollywood set with holes punched in it.
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A neat little thing might be to have a very limited fog effect on ALL daytime weather conditions. The reason being that objects do really become lighter and desaturated as they recede in the distance, even on clear days.
This is one of the reasons that I think people find the fog effects "cool" - it really adds to the illusion of depth and distance.
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Yeah Warphead,
I'd appreciate it if you sent a few of the nicer ones to me or Oddball - or post them somewhere everyone can see.
And if anyone else has suggestions or links about what typical western european buildings looked like, please let us know.
Thanks,
MW
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>>What happened to Henri is like having a huge pack of hungry chinchillas nipping and biting at your ankles. While their attacks may not draw blood they still leave wounds.<<
Oh, I think a ravenous pack of chinchillas would indeeed draw blood and quite possibly leave you tottering around on bloody stumps. Those animals are much more ferocious and dentally-endowed than hamsters, and they've got a mean streak to boot - probably as a result of years of brutal exploitation in the coat manufacturing business.
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To each his own I guess, doesn't bother me a bit. I just had to do the same thing to renew my driver's license - and the author's attempts to dispell the "myth" that guns are more dangerous than cars doesn't quite succeed, IMHO.
MW
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Good question - I suppose the answer might be that the AI isn't given the info about what forces they'll be facing so they just prepare for the worst. Realistic, but obviously it does give the human a slight advantage in QBs.
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The same sort of thing happened to me after I installed the latest drivers for my graphics card (also Voodoo3). Whenever I'd change to a different resolution the edges of the screen wouldn't be at the monitor edges anymore. The good news is that once I calibrated my monitor for that particular resolution, any time I'd go back to it the settings would still be right.
So just try using your monitor controls to stretch out the screen - hopefully it'll then "remember" those settings.
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I think that texture (1209) may also be used as a shell crater, which would obviously cause some problems if you added sandbags and such.
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1) Personally, I would still go with a CD drive vs. DVD, unless you want to watch movies - it's hard to tell when DVD is going to become mainstream (a year ago everyone was hyping DVD and still very few games take advantage of it).
2) I just read a short article in one of the gaming magazines on how the Voodoo5 cards were actually preferable for sim-type games where frame rates are not as important (GeForce cards are currently faster than Voodoo cards). The argument was that the Full-Scene-Anti-Aliasing (FSAA) on the new Voodoos looks much nicer than other cards, giving simulation games a much more immersive feel. I haven't seen it in action, and apparently screen-shots don't do it justice, so maybe someone else can comment on this. You should also be aware of a few problems with 3dfx cards (Voodoo) and Combat Mission though - check this forum for examples.
3) Go with the best you can afford here - I think the Soundblaster Live is the upper version? Depends on what speakers you have too: good card + bad speakers = poor sound.
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Here is the online version of the article - I imagine it is just the same as the print version:
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October 5, 2000
GAME THEORY
Playing War, but With a New Set of Rules
By PETER OLAFSON
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STARTED looking forward to computer war games the day my mother conquered Russia with a car door. And with the release of Combat Mission: Beyond Overlord, I've started looking forward to them all over again.
This singular war game, from a small New England publisher, blends the meticulous planning treasured by war-game enthusiasts with a 3-D perspective to reproduce the mystery and terror of war. I can't seem to put it down.
War games and I have an intricate history. I fell in love with the open structure of tabletop games in the mid-1970's and played games like Avalon Hills Afrika Korps and Conflict Games Overlord to distraction. The games I bought grew larger and larger in scope but they never seemed big enough to contain my ambition.
I went a bridge too far when I bought interlinking simulations of the Russo-German campaigns of 1941-45 from Game Designers Workshops. Drang Noch Osten (Drive to the East) and Unentschieden (Undecided) were so large they couldn't be set up in the house. For weeks on end, I retired to the Ping Pong table in the garage after dinner and squinted at the vast map and the small cardboard counters in the dim light.
That was just to set up the game. The war itself was never fought. Returning from the market one day, my mother swung the door of our Dodge Coronet station wagon too wide and succeeded where Charles XII, Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm and Hitler had failed. The table shook violently. Dozens of stacks of units toppled. Mother Russia fell without a shot being fired. I looked at the debacle in wordless bad humor, and started dreaming of games immune from the depredations of the real world.
Conventional computer war games have that immunity. Unfortunately, they usually don't offer any advantages over their real-world counterparts other than purely practical ones. The game calculates the combat odds. It allows you to see the map without moving the units and keeps track of the enemies you can and can't see. But even the best of these games are fun principally in the ways that the original games were fun, and they still fall prey to artificial constraints of their models.
In the mid- and late 1990's, a number of developers sought to bring a sense of accessibility and fun to this niche market, notably SSI with the Panzer General line and its offshoots, Atomic Games with its Close Combat series and Firaxis with its two Civil War games.
In Combat Mission, Big Time Software has achieved what these developers had and more. It has given us a turn-based game free of the unrealistic limitations that typically accompany turn-based games. And it has given us a 3-D game without the burdens of real-time combat, which can turn the player into a fireman racing from one errant unit to the next. In so doing, it offers the best of both worlds and effectively creates a fascinating new one with a whole new set of rules. War gaming may never be the same.
The game isn't vast in scope. Indeed, part of its appeal is its very manageability. Combat Mission consists of 41 small-unit engagements and seven multibattle operations set on the Western Front in 1944 and 1945. These scenarios, which can be played from either side, range in size from a 10-turn Allied assault on German positions in the Hurtgen Forest to a 75-turn battle royal in eastern France. You can also have the game whip together a random scenario by setting 22 variables yourself, or build one in detail.
When I saw the manual — an intimidating 166 pages — I hunkered down to follow a long learning curve. But the game is in fact remarkably intuitive, and I've used the book (which is written in appealingly plain language) only to sort out finer points of play. I sorted out most of the broad strokes by simply playing the game — something I've rarely been able to do in a war game.
It's simple enough. You highlight a unit or group of units with the mouse, click the right button and up pops a menu of choices. These depend on the specific unit and the state it is in, but they might range from Hunt to Hide to Button Up (which orders a tank to close its hatches) to Line of Sight (which allows you to determine what a unit can see). To direct a soldier to a new destination, you simply draw a line there. Once you've entered orders for the units, you click on the Go icon, the computer simultaneously implements your instructions and those of the game's artificial intelligence, and you watch the next 60 seconds of action unfold.
The result is, effectively, a battle with a pause button.
What you'll see is often thrilling. The action is fast and furious. Even the tutorial scenario, in which a lean German force is assigned to capture a vital intersection, gave me a good run for my money. My two Panzer IVG tanks got lucky. Approaching the crossroads, they cleared a rise and caught two Sherman tanks out of position, one obstructing the aim of the other. Concentrating their fire, they quickly took out the Allied units and the surviving crews abandoned the flaming hulks and retreated into the woods nearby.
I had the advantage. Now I had to use it. Commanding the center with the big guns of the Panzers, I brought forward my infantry, designating one small group to hold the crossroads while others advanced on the flanks. I wasn't really sure where the enemy was, but I quickly found out. A bitter battle erupted on the left flank as my riflemen and machine gunners ran headlong into American troops advancing through the woods. Troops on both sides dropped into prone positions as mortar rounds and grenades tore up the earth and smoke rounds enclosed the battlefield in a thick mist.
It didn't look good. My troops in the woods were clearly outnumbered. American antitank units appeared out the woods and immobilized the Panzers. It was anyone's battle until my infantry advancing on the right flank moved into position alongside the woods and caught the American troops in crossfire.
The computer commander knew it was licked. It began to pull back, and I finally allowed myself to breathe again. It's the first war game I can recall in which I've responded emotionally to a victory, and I know why. It felt as though I were there.
You can adjust the perspective to a position so high in the air that the terrain looks a bit like a war game map, and so close to the ground that you're right on the battlefield with the smoke, the screams, the tracers and flying dirt. This doesn't lend itself to control — you can't see the forest for the trees — but it's the only place to be when the shooting starts, because it shows off Combat Mission's marvelous eye for detail. If you're close enough, you can actually see the medals on the driver's uniform. When I finally won a battle after having my head handed to me a few times, I felt as though I'd planted the French flag atop the Eiffel Tower. And that beaming sense of pride is different from the rather clinical reaction I've had when I've been successful at other war games. This didn't feel like a game. It felt like a battle.
Now, car doors did bang Combat Mission in small ways along the way. My Newfoundland drooled a bit on the manual, as she drools on everything she touches. I misplaced, and then accidentally scratched, the game CD. But the game went on regardless — undisturbed, practical, but also deeply absorbing and intensely entertaining.
•
Combat Mission, published by Battlefront.com; developed by Big Time Software; for Windows 95, 98 and 2000 and MacOS 7.5; $45 at www.battlefront.com; not rated.
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Graham - Excellent idea!!!
However I just tried it out and there are a few minor problems.
When you add transparency to a building (say in the form of shellholes, or collapsing upper walls) the program will give you the transparency, BUT won't draw the interior walls - you simply see whatever terrain is behind/underneath the building. So you lose the 3D illusion. It does look pretty cool when squads are in the building (as the interior walls are then drawn) but not worth the ugly look which all the unoccupied buildings will have.
Also, the roof tiles are repeated so many times that punching holes in them gives you (besides the effect I just mentioned) a very 'tiled' cheese-grater look - not enough variation.
Hopefully the ability to do this sort of thing will be implemented in CM2!
Mark
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Not sure what you mean exactly?
3D models can't be changed, only textures - if it's textures you were interested in, there is an "Urban" mod coming out sometime in the future which adds additional rubble tiles, fountains, and other various, small, graphical changes.
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I seem to remember someone else having this problem with a GeForce card - might be worth it to search through some of the older posts. Sorry that isn't much help but I'm sure someone else will be along to give you a hand shortly.
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Direct 3D only I believe.
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I have it installed on my Dad's computer and sometimes play it when I visit him.
It is: P200, 32MB, Voodoo2 card
And it works great for smaller battles - larger ones are a bit tedious of course.
And FYI I just saw in the local Electronics Boutique where 3dfx is still selling their Voodoo2 card (a reissue maybe?) with some fancy packaging to match the other, newer cards, and for only $29.99!
If you can find one of those cards Future, you'd be set until you are in a position to upgrade your system.
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Ho Ho!, LOL!
My favorite one-liner from those:
"I would give this book negative stars if such an option were provided."
ohhhhh boy....You're right Lawyer - it DOES feel good to vent!
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I just sold my copy at Barnes and Noble with some old computer books for $22. Not sure how much of that was "Tiger Ace" but I'd guess a good chunk of it.
My favorite hated expression of Simpson's:
"pertaining to". Seems he liked to use that phrase when he's dug himself way to deep into a bull**** sentence and wants to somehow salvage it. I don't think I'll ever be able to say or write 'pertaining to' again without thinking of his idiocy.
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Everything you could possibly want to know about the Hetzer, including it's remote-controlled MG!:
http://www.geocities.com:0080/Pentagon/1933
(perhaps the page's author would be willing to write something for you?)
[This message has been edited by LuckyShot (edited 09-24-2000).]
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I was rather inclined to give Simpson the benefit of the doubt as his sources do seem pretty significant and thorough...
BUT, there are a number of things that point to his book as being more of a personal take on Wittman's exploits rather than an historical research text.
Appalling writing and spelling aside...
1 - there are NO footnotes, endnotes etc. This a huge no-no if you are trying to accurately prove some point or describe some past event. Even direct quotes from Wittmann and other German officers are just inserted with no clue as to who might have heard them. (eg: 'Wittman stated in a low voice, "Paks are deadly to us, we will have to do away with them"!' p.158)
2 - His constant description of the Russians and British as 'Ivans' or 'Tommies'. Again, if you are trying to give the whole picture, you don't resort to describing people with semi-derogatory phrases used by one side. And Simpson does this about 90% of the time, suggesting he holds Wittmann and the SS in a higher regard than those he was fighting.
3 - Appendix II - it starts off as being written (apparently) by someone other than Simpson (it appears to be a previously published magazine article) as it says "Following are the agreed facts between Major Sale and Mr. Simpson and are written by Major Sale for guidance of Mr. Simpson on his return to America" (p.314).
Halfway through the description of the battle of Villers Bocage we get this paragraph (partial):
"It is now known that Michael Wittmann returned to his own troops and after obtaining an already 'bombed up' (full of ammunition and fuel) Tiger I (author's additional research note) he attacked 'A' squadron..."
Now it becomes unclear who is really writing the article, and when it was edited, and to what extent. In short, the reader has no idea where supported evidence ends and conjecture begins.
It really is a mess, that book, despite having the 'trappings' of a research paper, I think it isn't much more than Simpson's own ideas about who Wittmann was and what he did, inspired by some interviews he conducted and his own image of Wittmann as a larger-than-life dashing SS superman.
Just my thoughts,
Mark W.
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You can freely add any graphics and sound mods to your system without worrying about PBEM games or other saved games.
They only affect what you see and hear on your computer so while your opponent may not be seeing the same Tiger I texture, for example, it really doesn't matter as everything about the way the game plays remains unchanged.
If you've found that you have installed some mods that don't look/sound as good as the originals, you can just copy the old ones from the CD (BMP or WAV folder) again without re-installing.
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I saw that too - I think in this case a passing reference is a good thing. Any game they devote an article to usually gets ridiculed.
Funniest gaming site on the net for sure!
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I've got both and only the AGP version is giving me problems.
At home: P233, 96mb, Voodoo3 2000 PCI - no problems yet.
At work: P600, 256mb, Voodoo3 3000D AGP(special Dell variant w/out TV-out) - usually get the gradual graphic corruption on large, rainy battles.
Both cards are using the same driver which is the latest approved one I think (1.05 or something)
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Oddball - yeah, I'd give you a hand if you still need it - I've messed around with the terrain files for my own use, I've got the tools, and I think it might actually work out well.
Give me an e-mail (check my profile) if you want.
MW
BMP file organization
in Combat Mission Archive #2 (2000)
Posted
**** EDIT 11/13/00 ****
Juju has generously recorded the numbers for the Axis guns (AT, AA, Inf. etc.) and they are now listed below numerically and by name.
**** EDIT ****
Okay, here is an updated list with all the armour. The vehicles are listed numerically and also by nationality and type, following that. This won't be completely accurate as many vehicles share 'parts' - but it should be all anyone needs to do their own mods. If you can't locate a piece, try searching through similar models, the unknown locations I've marked with an '?', and the BMPs I labeled "MISC PATCHES OF COLOUR".
Please amend this if you have any additions or corrections.
Mark Wilson
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CM BMP File Numbering
300's Buildings (321-339: 2 storey)
340-345 Bunkers
390 Stone Bridge
392 Wooden Bridge
400's Flags/Markers etc.
500's Trees
600-627 Roads (600-612: dirt; 613-627 paved)
628-633 Marsh
634-639 Wheat (Summer)
640 Rough (Winter = 849)
641-646 Water (Ford = 673)
647-652 Woods Bases (Summer)
653-658 Woods Bases (Fall)
659-671 Railroad
672 Rubble (and Roadblock)
673 Ford
674-678 City Roads
679-684 Brush
685-690 Scattered trees (Summer)
691-696 Scattered trees (Fall)
697-702 Wheat (Fall)
800's and 900's Winter misc.
860-899+ buildings (Winter)
1100's Unit Portraits
1201-1202 Roof Tiles
1204-1206 Fire/explosion
1208 Stone Wall
1209,1210 Craters (and Foxhole)
1211 Barbed Wire
1217 Hedge and Bocage
1218 Stone Wall (Winter)
1219 Hedge and Bocage (Winter)
1600's menu elements
1700's Fire/explosion etc.
1800's smoke
1900's personal weapons
2000's interface graphics
3000's and 4000's Vehicles
5000's Uniforms
5100-5111 3D Faces
VEHICLES AND GUNS
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3006-3019 US Sherman M4A3(76)W HVSS Easy-Eight; M4A3(76)W+ HVSS Easy-Eight; M4A3(105) HVSS
3030-3039 Tiger II (King Tiger)
3100-3109 Pz IV - G;H;J
3110-3118 Jagd. Panther
3200-3206 Hotchkiss
3210-3218 Hetzer (Jgpz 38t); Flammpanzer 38(t)
3220-3227 US Sherman Jumbo; Jumbo 76
3230-3239 Panther G (late)
3240-3248 PSW 234/1; Puma
3250-3258 SPW 251/1
3260-3269 Cromwell IV; VI; VII; VIII
3270-3279 Stug.IIIG; Stuh.42
3280-3286 US Truck
3290-3298 Sherman 'Firefly' IIC; VC; Sherman IIA
3300-3308 Jeep
3310-3319 M7, M7B1 'Priest' SP gun
3320-3325 Humber Scout Car
3330-3336 US Sherman M4A3; M4A3(76)W; (76)W+; (75)W; (75)W+; M4; M4(105); 'Crocodile'
3340-3349 Jagdtiger (Hunting Tiger)
3350-3359 M8 'Greyhound' AC
3360-3368 Allied Tank Destroyer - M10; 'Wolverine'; M36 Jackson
3370-3378 SP gun 'Hummel'; 'Nashorn'
3380-3387 JgdPz IV; JgdPz IV/70(V)
3390-3398 Tiger I
3400-3405 GENERIC UNIDENTIFIED ARMOUR MARKERS
3410-3421 Allied TD - M18 'Hellcat'
3430-3439 Allied HTs: M3, M4A1, M5A1, M21
3450-3467 Churchill - all models
3470-3477 Axis 88mm Flak
3480-3489 M24 Chaffee
3500-3511 Pz IIL 'Lynx'
3520-3532 SPW 250/8
3540-3548 'Kangaroo'; 'Badger'
3560-3568 Stuart; M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage
3580-3589 M26 Pershing; Super Pershing
3600-3604 T8 Recon, 'Kangaroo'
3620-3625 M3A1, White Scout Car
3640 Jeep MG
3660-3664 Assault Boat
3670-3673 M20 Utility Car
3680-3686 Universal Carrier; MMG Carrier; 'Wasp'
3700-3709 Daimler AC
3720-3727 SP gun 'Wespe'
3741-3743 parts for 'Hummel' and/or 'Nashorn'
3760-3767 ?
3780-3789 Axis 50mm and 75mm AT guns
3790-3797 Kubelwagen
3800-3809 Axis 88mm pak43 AT gun
3810-3813 Sherman M4A1; M4A1(76W); _(76)W+; Sherman II
3819-3829 Axis 20mm Flak
3840-3849 Allied TD - 'Achilles'
3860-3868 Axis 20mm Quad Flak
3870-3876 Ger. Flak Vehicle 7/1; 7/2
3880-3885 Allied TD - M36 Jackson
3890-3896 Sherman Firefly IIC; VC
3900-3910 SPW 251/9
3915-3918 SPW 251/2; 251/16
3920-3928 Axis 37mm Flak
4000-4018 MISC. PATCHES OF COLOUR
4020-4028 TRACKS FOR ALL ARMOURED VEHICLES
4100-4107 'Archer'
4110-4119 'Wirbelwind'; 'Ostwind' AA vehicles
4130-4131 SP gun Marder III
4210-4211 'Ostwind' AA vehicle
4220-4225 gun?
4230-4235 PSW 234/3
4240-4266 SPW 250/1; 250/7; 250/9
4270-4288 Axis 75mm and 150mm Inf. guns
4290-4299 SP gun 'Sexton'
4300-4302 Stuart V
4310-4320 'Comet'
4330-4335 M3A1 HT
4340-4349 Panther G (early)
4350-4361 Panther A
4370-4382 gun?
4390-4397 88mm Puppchen
4400-4409 gun?
4410-4416 Allied Truck
4420-4426 Ger. Truck
4430-4435 M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage
4440-4446 Axis 75mm and 105mm Howitzer
4450 gun?
4455-4458 Sherman Croc. trailer
4460-4469 'Challenger'
4471-4475 SPW 251/16
4480-4481 M4A1 Mortar Carrier
4490-4492 Axis 105mm RCL
4500-4520 ?
4530-4538 gun?
4550-4559 Sherman III; V
4560-4565 Ger. Transport Vehicle
4570-4573 ?
4580-4582 gun?
4590-4594 SP gun Marder II
4600-4601 Stug. IV
_______________________
Vehicles etc. Listed by Name and Nationality
_Note_ - many vehicles share "pieces" (rear panels, tires etc.) so you may have to search through vehicles of similar type and model to find everything needed to modify a complete unit. And of course you should check all related vehicles to ensure they haven't been altered as well. A good trick is to open up a bunch of stuff in a paint program, mark it all with a big colourful stroke, save them all - BUT DON'T CLOSE them, jump to CM, in the scenario maker add any units you think may be affected (set date to spring '45 to get all models) , open the preview, and note where all the splashes of colour are. Then ESC back to your paint program and UNDO all the marks you made and resave. This should give you a good idea what is used where.
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German:
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*Vehicles:
sd kfz Gun Tractor - 4560-4565
sd kfz 7/1, 7/2 flak veh. - 3870-3876
PSW 234/1; Puma ACs - 3240-3248
PSW 234/3 AC - 4230-4235
SPW 250/1;/7;/9 HTs - 4240-4246
SPW 250/8 HT - 3520-3532
SPW 251/1 HT - 3250-3258
SPW 251/2;/16 HT - 3915-3918
SPW 251/16 HT - 4471-4475
SPW 251/9 HT - 3900-3910
Kubelwagen - 3790-3797
Truck - 4420-4426
*Armour:
Lynx (Pz IIL) - 3500-3511
Wespe - 3720-3727
Marder II - 4590-4594
Ostwind - 4110-4119; 4210-4211
Wirbelwind - 4110-4119
Hummel - 3370-3378
Panzer IV G,H,J - 3100-3109
Jagdpanzer IV; Panzer IV/70(V) - 3380-3387
Nashorn 3370-3378
Stuh42; Stug III - 3270-3279
Tiger I - 3390-3398
King Tiger - 3030-3039
Jagdtiger - 3340-3349
Panther A - 4350-4361
Panther G early - 4340-4349
Panther G late - 3230-3239
Jagdpanther - 3110-3118
Hetzer; Flammpanzer 38(t) - 3210-3218
Marder III - 4130-4131
*Guns:
20mm Flak - 3819-3829
20mm Quad Flak - 3860-3868
37mm Flak - 3920-3928
88mm Flak - 3470-3477
50mm; 75mm AT - 3780-3789
88mm AT - 3800-3809
75mm; 150mm Inf. guns - 4270-4288
75mm; 105mm Howitzers - 4440-4446
88mm Puppchen - 4390-4397
105mm RCL - 4490-4492
Allied:
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*Vehicles:
Assault Boat - 3660-3664
M3, M5A1, M21 HTs - 3430-3439
M4A1 Mortar Car. - 3430-3439; 4480-4481
M3A1 HT - 4330-4335
M3A1 AC - 3620-3625
M8 Greyhound - 3350-3359
M20 AC - 3670-3673
T8 Rec. Car - 3600-3604
Jeep - 3300-3308; 3640
US Truck - 3280-3286
Allied Truck - 4410-4416
Kangaroo - 3540-3548; 3600-3604
M5A1 HT - 3430-3439
Daimler AC - 3700-3709
Humber AC - 3320-3325
White Scout Car - 3620-3625
Universal Carrier - 3680-3686
WASP - 3680-3686
*Armour:
M4, M4A3 series Shermans - 3330-3336
M4A3 HVSS Easy Eight Shermans - 3006-3019
Sherman Crocodile - 3330-3336; 4455-4458
M4A1 series - 3810-3813
Sherman Jumbos - 3220-3227
Sherman II - 3810-3813
Sherman IIA - 3290-3298
Sherman Fireflys - 3290-3298; 3890-3896
Sherman III, V - 4550-4559
M5A1 Stuart - 3560-3568
Stuart V - 4300-4302
M7 Priest - 3310-3319
M8 Howitzer Motor Carriage - 3560-3568; 4430-4435
M10, 'Wolverine' TD - 3360-3368
M18 Hellcat - 3410-3421
M24 Chaffee - 3480-3489
M26 Pershing, Super Pershing - 3580-3589
M36 Jackson - 3360-3368; 3880-3885
Cromwells - 3260-3269
Challenger - 4460-4469
Comet - 4310-4320
Churchills - 3450-3467
Achilles - 3840-3849
Archer - 4100-4107
Sexton - 4290-4299
Badger - 3540-3548
[This message has been edited by LuckyShot (edited 11-03-2000).]
[This message has been edited by LuckyShot (edited 11-13-2000).]