Shrapnel

My word, you leave a thread for five minutes....! Seriously, I think that a lot of thoughtful and intelligent comments have been made, and I can't pretend to respond to them all (and I don't think anyone would read through the whole damn thing if I did!). There are just a couple of things I wanted to say: First of all, I want to apologize to Zaffod. I didn't realize that what I originally mentioned could be read as "Zaffod, that misogynistic jerk" -- it was intended only as an example of the sort of comment that *keeps* women believing that war games are just not for them. I was pointing out a problem, not criticizing Zaffod, if that makes sense to anyone. Part of the reason it's so important to me to point out comments like these is because people learn what they should be from other people. Harassment issues aside, if all women hear (especially from gamers!) is that women aren't interested in war games, then that's what they'll assume *should* be. Only women who have an inherent interest in war games AND have the ability to ignore what society says they should be -- which is not as easy as one might think! -- are going to end up interested in war games and such, especially since women are generally steered away from these interests starting at a very young age. On another topic, I definitely think that there are biological differences between men and women -- but with several caveats. Experiments done at Cambridge University show that the differences seem to be in certain kinds of cognitive tasks, such as finding 'embedded figures' in geometric shapes. These are not differences that determine whether someone will like war games -- it's merely a difference in cognitive ability *on the average* with significantly more difference between individuals of the same gender than between the averages of the two. I think that society's gender roles determine a lot of the *expression* of those differences. Very few activities call explicitly on the skills where there is any *demonstrated* difference between male and female brains. Most of the other claims to biological difference are sociobiological 'storytelling' explanations with no experimental basis, though I am certainly open to the idea that such basis may (or may not!) be found -- my point is that it hasn't been yet. As far as people being asses to women who play games, I can unfortunately vouch that this is true, both in war games and in other gaming circles. For many women, a few bad experiences may be enough to drive them away - this is all supposed to be *fun*, and being hassled isn't. The overall point I'm trying to make is that women certainly can be interested in war and war games, and not just as a tiny minority of the gaming population either. But society will have to change in ways that make it more comfortable for women to have and express these interests for that to happen -- I for one would like to see the day! -Jessica

Oh, and I'd appreciate it if people like Zaffod wouldn't generalize about women not liking war or war games. The women you know may not like them, but that may mean you need to hang out with women who are more hard-core. =) There's a whole hidden network of us out here, who are just trying to survive the weight of expectations (from men and women alike) about what we *should* like or *should* be as women -- things are difficult enough as it is without hearing the same old arguments from within the gaming community.

First off - yes, I'm a woman gamer. (That's one!) Second off - I suspect there are a bunch of us lurking around, and even more who play the games but don't post on this forum. I think Fionn is right and that all the hassles we get if we make ourselves conspicuous as women just aren't worth it, whether that means being hit on, condescended to, or just plain insulted. I'm not implicating any of you guys -- this is one of the *more* respectful places I've found. I'm just pointing out that given gender stereotypes in this day and age, and given cultural attitudes of how it is acceptable to treat women, gaming culture *can* (but does not have to!) be a very unfriendly place for a woman to show herself. That said, it should be clear that I'm not afraid to let you guys know I'm a woman -- those of you who are cool with it are cool with me as well, and I will happily beat any others into submission. =)

What's that? Girls don't like killing things like blokes do? Personally, I just think we hide it remarkably well. Advantage of surprise, you know. For a practical example, my boyfriend never suspects a thing when I **** him as soon as he gets home from work. He falls asleep right off the bat and then I get CM all to myself all night. Hee hee hee! -Jessica

Yeah, I hate it when my boyfriend makes me stop playing CM. ("Sweetie, don't you want to go shopping or something?") -Jessica