Sabot

****Dont worry...Im not here to battle. I actual consider you guys our poor, misguided brethren. Perhaps one day, just as east and west germany were united, I hope we too can fight side by side in wargames of the future. ****Peng taunts are a good idea, and good fun. But our spys are ever amoung you and quickly identified a plot by rogue elements here to cause havok in CCland even as the attack was being launched. Nice try... Sabot Out...

****Dont fall asleep in the driver's hatch, Moriarity. You might wake up as a Zombie in one of those three man squads..

Is it that your game's so lame? I must ask you to refrain From visiting our quiet 'hood Posting Pengish as a child would Perhaps your flames and calling of names Has become more exciting than your wargames? Ill end this rhyme, so dont be blind Get real, Zombies, Get REAL TIME!!!

****Man, you guys are serious! Mikeydz....Did you feel like an Aberdeen tester? This "quick shot" or " lay center mass and fire" stuff comes from what is called "Battlesight" range. When Boresighting at say 1200m (modern day) the gun and sights are aligned at a point 1200m downrange. Any superelevation corrections for targets closer or further away than 1200m is handled by the computer from data from the laser rangefinder. Now, suppose the laser is out. You know that the gun is boresighted at 1200m. 1200m is your battlesight range. You push the battlesight button, or grap the power control handles and the gun will superelevate to hit a 1200m target. You can make Kentucky windage adjustments depending on your own range estimation and lead. What Im trying to say is "battlesight" is a quick reference point for your gun....set beforehand that you may quickly use to engage targets without ranging them. US WWII Euro battlesight was 800m. modern Euro is 1200m. Modern desert is 2000m. In close-range engagements, where speed is of the essance, or malfuntion of rangefinder....battlesight range is used to engage targets. I hope this isnt too rambling or disjointed....I dont have any books here handy to better explain it.

****Yes, Blackhorse. Thats exactly what I was trying to say. Closest I ever came to WWII style gunnery was in the gulf. Somehow a piece of sand or something interfered with the mechanism that changes the electronic signals of the gunner's power control handles from electric signals to hydraulic power. Everytime I grabbed the caddilacs the turret would buck and the retical would shake. I had to shoot in Emergency mode (No laser, no Stabilization, no lead, no cant, ect...) for the rest of the day til the mechanics fixed it that night. Stop, line up the shot through the Aux sight(a ballistic sight not unlike the WWII sights), and lay the main gun with manual cranking. It didnt affect me so much cause we werent recieving return fire. But it did make my asshole tight when it happened. ****Calling the gunnery in WWII games such as CM a "Crap Shoot" was the wrong analogy I guess. I believe that the main ingedient of laying steel on target is gunner skill. And the skill of the crew in boresighting and zeroing the main gun. Many a target has been hit by correcting using manual aim-off. Something few modern gunners are trained well in, but I imagin Veteran WWII gunners were well versed in. ****Someone stated earlier in this thread that rounds would not disperse enough at such short ranges (300m). I never took a maingun shot at under 500m. But the important thing to remember when talking about this is : A Mil is a Meter at 1000 meters. What this means is if your sights are 1 mil off (and they get this way even in properly boresighted modern tanks due to thermal bending {ask an M1 tanker about MRS update and you will start an argument}...you will miss a target ranged at 1000m by 1 meter. So at 500m with a 1 mil error, the round will disperse 50cm from the aiming point. ****Like Blackhorse (11th ACR?) said...There are so many factors of accuracy that cant be modeled exactly by the games, that when you miss for seemingly no reason, you have to chalk it up to one of the error factors of the tank gun error budget. Or Gremlins!

****Im sure many of you know me by my initial post on this forum. I read many posts on the SSI forums and TGN by CM people slaming CC before I retaliated, both there and here. I will order CM, not because I like it, but because I support the direction the company (BTS) is taking in regards to marketing. I drink up $50 of beer easily throughout a week. The money will not hurt me. And it may, just may grow on me. Please accept the following information as somewhat of a peace offering. ****Ive been a loader, driver, gunner and TC on every version of the M1 series of tanks. Two NATO Candian Army Trophy Teams, Fulda gap, Desert Storm. Im the highest scoring gunner from 3rd Brigade 3rd Armored Div in the gulf. I worked with the then head of the weapons dept of the Master Gunner School, Ft Knox, SFC Tadlock, on developing alternate engagement methods (TIS/Daylight) for the the M1A1. Ive busted alot of big bullets. But enough about me... ****The tank gun error budget is a list of the possible error sources that can effect the accuracy of a ballisic projectile. It includes the influences of hardware, environmental conditions and human factors. It is divided into 3 categories: 1. Fixed bias- which includes the errors of flaws in ammunition and fire control systems manufacture, as well as physics such as Parallax (the offset differnce between the boreline and the various optical sights), ballistic drift of spin-stabilized rounds, and mean jump (the difference between the boreline and the line of departure amoung various rounds). 2. Variable bias- errors which may vary from occasion to occasion. Such as Cant(un-horizontal gun trunion), Wind, muzzle velocity variations (damaged rifling,tube wear,ammo temperature, Tube Memory(firing diffrent type of ammo on the following shot), Air temperature, Muzzle displacement due to thermal bending (heating and cooling of the gun tube)and gun tube droop (gravitational pull of the gun tube downward due to lenth and weight). Air Density (barometric pressure), Optical path bending (Illusion of movement created by solar radiation) and Jump (the angular difference between the predicted launch angle and the actual launch angle ie. recoil effects). 3. Random error- Round to round dispersion (no two rounds, even from the same lot #s, ever fly exactly the same), Gunner lay error (aiming wrong), Burst on Target aquisition (the speed of certain rounds makes it difficult to observe the round inflight or after impact from the firing gun), errors in Zeroing, errors in boresighting. ****The main point Im trying to make is there are SO many things that can go wrong when firing a shot. A bad boresight and you turn from a tanker to a coffin pilot. When firing on plywood training targets, a APFSDS round just leaves a small round hole in the wood. But Ive seen sabots go through a target sideways and leave the silluette of the projectile as an imprint in the target. Why? Because for some reason the ass-end (fins) of the round broke off in flight somewhere. What about an engagement on the move; troops pop up first at say 300m. Coax---bRAAAP BRAAAAAP Brraaaap. Then a main gun target pops.Target Cease Fire Gunner Sabot tank Identified Up Fire On the Way....BRaaraaaap. Oh ****! I forgot to switch from coax to main gun. Happens all the time and vice versa (main to coax). Even in modern tank companys there are tanks which are just known as "Bad tanks". Theres always some gremlin screwing up something on them. I dont know how the hit percentages are done in CM, but at WWII ranges (Usually 800m or less) with WWII balistic sights, it may be like you said...a crap shoot. Thats why what really got me going was this "my data is better than your data" stuff Kwazydog was spouting on TGN. ****Anyways.....happy Hunting, you Turn-Basers!

****Hey guys! Theres a game you need to try...its called Close Combat. It smokes CM like a cheap cigar. You see, its REAL TIME. Everything happens all at once. No turns. Can you believe it? And the squads have more than 3 men! Also, its been modded to hell and back, so there's a CC for everone's taste...from flashbanging Super JSIIIs and Rambo soldiers to accurate depictions of Vietnam, European Western Front and the 1940 campaign. Get with the NEW WAY of wargames! REAL TIME gaming wasnt possible before computers; thats why we had TURNs in games. Now that REAL TIME IS possible...why make a Turn-based (Or semi-turn based or whatever you guys call it here) game? Thats a step backwards. Bring on the flames, you frappin 3-D Turn Basers. Tell me how much "better and more realistic" your CM is. I need a good laugh.