[It Was the Best of PENG CHALLENGES, It Was the Worst of PENG CHALLENGES]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>dalem wrote:

chicks are the kind of females that make me glad I'm male<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a bit of an ambiguous comment...

And MrSpnky, take a lesson from me, and if an Outer Boarder says something incredibly stupid, don't flame them directly, do it behind their backs like me. These people are dangerous and should be left to their own bizarre devices.

That said, Colonel_Braindead is responsible for a one-man reign of ignorance which has terrorised this board for too long.

[sneaking up with the knife]

This type of thing doesn't work in CM. You're talking about despatching a couple of unwary sentries, not dealing with whole combat-ready squads, which is what you get in CM. Moreover, units in CM do not act stealthily by default, and will happily open up on any available target.

This brings us back to what Charles says about the way CM is programmed – everything you see has to be specifically designed to work the way it does. CM is designed as a combat simulator, not a commando simulator. Troops will shoot first and ask questions later.

[It Was the Best of PENG CHALLENGES, It Was the Worst of PENG CHALLENGES]

The debate rages on: Is Colonel_Deadmarsh vegetable or mineral?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2) Why do some off-board arty teams say "mortar" and others are just regular arty?

For instance, the 4.2 inch is called a "mortar" and yet the 4.5 inch is not. What gives?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Duuuuhhhh... wellll.... I'm stuck on that one.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>4) What are these rockets on the German side?

Are they launched from planes? How accurate are they compared to the off-board arty guns or mortars?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes of course they're launched from planes... that's why you can use them in all weathers whereas you can only use fighter-bombers in clear skies. And as for their accuracy... why the hell don't you just try them and see??? Do you actually own Combat Mission? Have you ever heard of it? Do you know what day it is, or your own name??

There may be hope for this creature, but I doubt it.

[One sniper shot kills two men??]

Marksmen don't have X rounds, they have X ammunition units, just like all infantry in the game.

As for the halftrack, that's an example of a second unit taking collateral damage from fire directed at the first. This can be very pronounced, and should make anyone think twice about grouping units together.

[It Was the Best of PENG CHALLENGES, It Was the Worst of PENG CHALLENGES]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lorak wrote:

But what the hell did Mace just say?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something about attractive daughters... I didn't notice anything else that seemed worth reading.

[Nice & Courteous PBEM Challenge Thread: Post Here]

Marlow you mook, they're not eyes, they're an umlaut. I don't believe you didn't know that, but it seems fitting to regard you as an ignorant git. Oops, this is the nice and fluffy challenge thread... well, my dear, allow me to provide you with some information on umlauts purely for your educational benefit, and please forgive me if you already know it all.

In German, an umlaut affects vowel sounds to make the speaker seem ill. It is often substituted with an 'e' by English-speakers, so König becomes Koenig and Schürzen becomes Schuerzen. (In much the same way, the esstset, a character peculiar to German, is replaced by a double-S, so words like Schloß and Fußgängerzone are bastardised to the pathetically boring Schloss and Fussgaengerzone.) However, simply pronouncing the umlaut-free word as-is does not produce the correct sound, so it is left to real Germans, and people who know approximately five words in German but can do the accent brilliantly like me, to provide an accurate aural experience.

The umlaut can be reproduced on a computer with a special key combination. At this point, if you are using the Mac OS, you may be suffused with great joy at the ease with which this operation is possible. Simply press Alt-U, and then type the letter you wish the umlaut to appear over. If you are using Windows, on the other hand, be advised that it is crap as far as simple commonsense things like this are concerned, and you will need to use the Key Caps program buried somewhere in the darkest recesses of the Start menu to reproduce the umlaut-augmented letter and then copy it to your typing.

Edit: I don't think it's called Key Caps... maybe Shortcuts.

[ 08-08-2001: Message edited by: David Aitken ]

[Light Mortars]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>KiwiJoe wrote:

Against infantry in trees they are deadly. It seems like 80% of the shells tree-burst. With the high rof they can cut up and break a platoon inside a turn allowing your infantry to rush them with great results.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stalin's Organ would disagree with you there. I was playing a PBEM with him with randomly picked forces, and I ended up with about two and a half companies of green Polish troops. At night. I grouped all the mortars together (about, what, ten or twelve of them), with a company HQ as spotter. I saw one of his platoons run into a small patch of trees up ahead so I plastered it. It was very dramatic and amusing, but apparently I barely caused a couple of casualties.

In my opinion 2in mortars should stay with their platoons (which is also historically accurate), and provide that extra bit of firepower and suppression in a firefight. This can be very useful in a woods encouter where no other support weapons can be brought to bear. As it happens, in the most recent turn of my current PBEM with Lawyer, a 2-incher of mine was shelling a gun of his, and seemed very effective. That seems to be what they're good for – short-range, pinpoint suppression.

PS. CMplayer –

[Nice & Courteous PBEM Challenge Thread: Post Here]

Aye, an' dinnae be tryin' tha' again, son, or ah'll set yon Haggis O' Doom on ye an' yer gamey gerbiljägers!

May yer flak-tracks be taken oot by small-arms fire fae a thoosand yards, an' yer Königstigers bog doon an' be gun-damaged by Daimler armurred cars! Ye have been warrrned!

[It Was the Best of PENG CHALLENGES, It Was the Worst of PENG CHALLENGES]

This from the thread about the ancient board crash resurrected by Maxipad. These quotes are about a year apart, but that's not the point.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>tss wrote:

Of course I don't know anything about this BBS software, but if the programmers encoded the message identifiers using signed 16-bit integers, then the wraparound point is at 32767 messages...

- Tommi

• • • • •

Colonel_Deadmarsh wrote:

Well who doesn't know this..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pfff!! This coming from Colonel Ten Year Olds Who Have Spent The Past Two Years Locked In The Lavatory Know More About Combat Mission And The Second World War Than Me Deadmarsh??

Tommi's comment was very informative as far as I'm concerned – for someone like Deadmarsh to brush it of is a bit of an insult.

Rant over... you are now returned to your regular programme of mud-flinging.

[thats gamey!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Priest wrote:

Let me start off by saying that I have not read all 5 pages of this thread<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Did trucks and HTs transport me there? Probably and abstracted them by my gun forces just being there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Here is an interesting question (and one that may have already been asked), how did your infantry and heavy weapons teams get there? Do you buy a transport for each of them? Where do we draw the line people?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lastly the Stuh was semi-rare and I cannot remember the Marder III production numbers (snip)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with not reading the discussion and just dropping your opinion in at the end, is that it confuses the discussion and rehashes issues which have already been settled. The only way a discussion can develop is if people consider the points already made and expand upon them, or indeed, choose to say nothing if they have nothing new to add. Otherwise the thread just keeps repeating itself and goes nowhere.

Not particularly important in this thread, as I think most of us have said all we're going to say, but just a point of order.

[It Was the Best of PENG CHALLENGES, It Was the Worst of PENG CHALLENGES]

Would peoples who have sent me PBEM files and received no response please send them instead to reckoning@mac.com. This means Leeo, and possibly Messrs.The French and MrSpnky. If, on the other hand, you've just been biding your time, kindly get a move on and use my normal address. Has anyone had any recent dealings with armornut? He had just recovered from a period of joblessness, and then he disappeared again.

["Falling Eagles" by Mensch: AAR (spoiler)]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CMplayer wrote:

What is _bad_ about 2 shermans, a chaffee and a rifle company?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only a company? I was under the impression that your force was very infantry-heavy. I suppose a standard US company costs a good bit more than a German rifle company, so that would have left you with fewer points for armour.

Your comments about FOW are interesting. On occasion I'm surprised in a game by the number of units my opponent seems to have. Maybe I should be more confident that I have the forces necessary to overcome the enemy.

[definition of gun/howitzer]

How is it that people like soapdodger can storm around issuing profanities and insults, and then breezily claim that it's other people who are flaming them? Looks like another opportunity to employ my new pet work, 'psychosis' – I'm right and everyone else is out to get me.

[definition of gun/howitzer]

Wow, the first person ever on this board who really gets up my nose.

[My MG's Can't Run Fast Enough for the Peng Challenge]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Long Joe Shawlver wrote:

Alice FloorVac, is there something we can do for you? If so, please sod off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be nice to Ales, he's just a poor foreign type like CMplayer pretends to be, and doesn't make much sense at the best of times. Yes Ales, it's me! ::waves:: Just nod and smile, nod and smile, and he'll be happy for the next few weeks.

[Pillbox on bridge- too gamey?]

The Germans at Arnhem were a bunch of gamey so-and-sos!

Keep in mind that bridges in CM are very basic, when in reality they could be quite complex. The 'Pegasus' bridge captured by British paras in Normandy was a very interesting raising bridge, and bridges like those at Arnhem and Nijmegen had a vertical superstructure which could harbour marksmen.

I'm not sure how bridges are modelled in CM in terms of cover, but the average European bridge (old stone arched type or newer concrete-and-metal type) would afford a good bit more protection than the visual representation in CM would suggest, at least from flanking fire, and often from longitudinal fire as well. The film about the Remagen bridge has a good example of this.

[My MG's Can't Run Fast Enough for the Peng Challenge]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Stalin's Organ wrote:

take note that David Aichin surrendered* in a fit of pique because my 1 remining 75mm pack howitzer KO'd a couple of his tanks and hadn't been towed into position (actually it had, but he assumed otherwise - ass being the first part of any asumption of course!).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*you are accurate up to this point.

Presumably you would have preferred another exciting 15-turn withdrawal?

[thats gamey!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Maximus wrote:

Thirdly, as it has been pointed out that MEs are by themselves gamey as the situation never happened anyway in real war. So You either have an attack or defense. So arguing a gamey tactic or move in a gamey situation to begin with, is totally ridiculous.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm still not convinced you're reading the thread. We have concluded that Meeting Engagements are and worst unusual, but certainly not gamey.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So I still say that wanting your opponent to waste points on a transport only just for the sakes of being ahistorical in an ahistorical situation such as a meeting engagement is purely hogwash.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has also been discussed. Historical accuracy has nothing to do with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Besides, who's to say the ME engagement map isn't where the two armies started out to begin with?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has also been discussed. If they were just 'there' to begin with, they would be dug in. And why would two sides advance from their front line to meet each other in no man's land at exactly the same moment?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I use the Civil War as the example because more times than not both sides usually camped out in plain view of one another before the battles. And most Civil War battles were Meeting Engagements.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what relevance does your example have?

["Falling Eagles" by Mensch: AAR (spoiler)]

This scenario should just have gone up at Der Kessel (www.derkessel.de). The following is an AAR of the beta for Mensch's benefit, played between myself and CMplayer (Rett). I don't think the final version is significantly different.

• • • • •

Thanks for the scenario - it was rather an interesting fight.

I would first like to complain in the strongest possible terms at the

lack of aircraft. The briefing clearly stated that there were aircraft

buzzing overhead and the 88 was shooting at them, but when I loaded up

the map... nothing! If I don't see the US paras dropping from their

aircraft in the final version, so that I'm able to shoot them as they

come down, I may have to boycott this and the rest of your shoddy work.

I spent the first turn doing that wonderful thing that CM enables -

micromanaging from my god-perspective. All of my men were nicely laid

out in teams as though they were in their billets, with one platoon on

patrol, but was I going to pretend that they were all tired and confused

and would end up prancing around the countryside in twos and threes as

they realistically would? Of course not. So by the second or third turn

my company was arranged in its three platoons around the town, the

patrol had organised itself down at the HQ, the company commander was

back in the village (or at least he would have been if the Kübelwagen

hadn't left without him), and I'd sent trucks to pick up the 50mm guns.

I allocated one Hotchkiss to each platoon and sent two out to the HQ.

The first action phase was beautiful, like something out of a film, as

men and vehicles sprang into action and rushed back and forth.

I spent half of the battle on the assumption that paras were about to

drop in all around town (and not conveniently out west where the glider

troops were), so I kept two platoons back in the woods around the

village, to the south and southwest. The third platoon was to the

northwest, so this ended up going out to confront the glider troops, and

of course the platoon out at the HQ was in combat throughout. Therefore

Rett only had to deal with two platoons and three tanks initially, then

another two plus tanks when I decided that I wasn't about to be swamped

in paras. I brought all of the support units into the woods at the

centre of the village, and then redistributed them amongst the

buildings, so this was the final hurdle he faced.

The platoon and two tanks at the HQ were allright for the first few

turns. One tank was quickly gun-damaged and rendered useless, I think by

60mm mortars. The squads were a bit panicky, but held out. I used the

off-board 81mm mortars to shell the woods across the grain field from

the HQ, where Rett appeared to be rallying some of his troops. I took

out an AT gun on the diagonal stretch of road to the northwest, and lost

the gun-damaged tank to a bazooka from the main road. Before long Rett

was advancing up the road and the fields on the northern side, so I

brought the platoon in to try and flank him, whereupon the remaining

tank was taken out by another AT gun next to the first, and the men came

under fire from the aforementioned woods and elsewhere and all panicked.

That platoon ceased to exist as a fighting unit, but some of the men

survived his mopping-up efforts and the remnants of one squad rejoined

the battle at the end (another was permanently routed).

During this time I deployed the 50mm guns on either side of the road to

the west of the village. One was taken out by .5in fire before it

unlimbered. The other was able to provide some support fire for a few

turns, although 50mm HE is nothing special (better than the useless 37mm

on the tanks, though). Two HMG42s I put in the tall light buildings

above happened to have LOS to the advancing enemy, and were active

throughout, expending all of their ammunition before the end. I

subsequently brought my two 81mm mortars forward to just behind the 50mm

gun, and put fire on enemy troops advancing up the road (at minimum

range), and on support units along the back of the northern grain field,

before withdrawing them to the woods in the centre of the village where

my crews were mustering.

The platoon to the northwest of the village went out to meet Rett's

advancing troops. I was hoping to catch them coming across the field,

but they were protected by the bocage from my positions in the trees, so

I moved my men forward to the bocage. The platoon's Hotchkiss exchanged

fire with one of Rett's .5in machineguns and survived. My men took fire

and started panicking, and one of CM's bugs came into play whereby they

didn't regard bocage as cover. The right-hand squad ran into nearby

brush where it was finished off by a US squad emerging from the bocage.

The left-hand squad ran out towards the road, into the bocage, and was

instantly massacred by Rett's troops on the road. I withdrew the centre

squad to the woods, where it caught a US squad coming through the

hedge-lined gap in the bocage, but didn't cause too many casualties.

Shortly thereafter I was overwhelmed by Rett's troops and the tank was

taken out by a rifle grenade at close range. I called the 81's in on

those woods, immediately to the west of the village, some of the rounds

hitting buildings occupied by my own troops.

At this point I realised that paras or no paras, I would have to commit

my remaining two platoons. On the south side, I advanced the platoon and

its tank to the edge of the trees, where they were in a position to hold

off Rett's troops which had finished mopping up my HQ platoon. The

platoon to the southeast I ran up to the 88mm emplacement. No sooner had

they arrived than Rett charged the buildings where my machineguns (and

FO) were, and his troops were massacred.

The southern platoon was now facing off against at least equal numbers

of US troops, and were suddenly outflanked by a couple of crack squads,

which (I later learned) had just dropped in. The paras charged in and

were suppressed (I think they may have already been in a bad state), but

one or two of my squads panicked, so I had to pull back the third, the

platoon commander and the tank to the small buildings in front of the church.

I noticed a US squad trying to crawl through the wire to the east of the

village, one of only two which I confirmed as paras before Rett

appraised me of the situation at the end. They were machinegunned, but

another sneaked into the church behind my marksmen and took out the

veteran before he was also caught in a hail of fire.

I sent the platoon at the 88mm emplacement, my only remaining platoon

(and probably the best, going by the commander's attributes) forward to

clear up US troops in the woods, with the intention of sweeping round

across the road to deal with the strongest remaining US position to the

south of the village. I bypassed a couple of squads which subsequently

opened up on the 88, taking out all but two of the crewmen, who

nevertheless managed to return fire, and dealt with the threat together

with a squad which I sent back. The platoon then proceeded across the

road and was joined by the one aforementioned squad from the original HQ

platoon. Immediately prior to this I had withdrawn the machinegun (with

little ammunition left) and company commander from the building Rett had

just charged overlooking the 88, leaving the gun unprotected, because

fire from his surviving AT gun at the bend in the road was threatening

to bring the place down.

Rett attempted to charge the small buildings in front of the church, and

was cut down by the remnants of my second-last squad, backed up by

machineguns and assorted platoon commanders in the other buildings. He

then either withdrew his remaining squads from the trees, or more likely

I think they panicked, and were caught in the open by my last platoon.

Time up, and the scoreboard said:

Axis

110 casualties

2 guns KO

7 vehicles KO

118 men OK

Score 63

Allied

188 casualties

4 mortars KO

1 gun KO

45 men OK

Score 37

Minor Axis victory.

I only lost one Kübelwagen (after taking the platoon commander down to

the HQ building on turn one) and two trucks (one after emplacing the

50mm gun which wasn't immediately taken out, and the other I don't

remember why). I kept the rest parked neatly in the middle of town where

they were largely protected. That means, of course, that four of my lost

vehicles were Hotchkisses - I only had one left at the end. Hotchkisses

are useless against infantry, and I'm sure the green crews didn't help.

They were little more than armoured, mobile machineguns, because the

37mm gun wasn't much use. So they didn't assist my defence particularly much.

Likewise for the 50mm guns - HE not terribly effective, and no tanks to

kill, so they added relatively little. The 88mm gun only came into play

when it was directly attacked. It got a couple of shots in at an enemy

squad earlier on (which had just taken out my surviving 50mm), and one

well-placed shot at Rett's charging infantry across the road at the very end.

The infantry was of limited usefulness. They put some fire down on the

US squads, but generally panicked when any significant volume of fire

was returned, and were dead if the enemy got up close. Towards the end I

thought Rett had the upper hand, but I managed to hold him off thanks to

the small reserve of firepower I had amongst the buildings. The HMG42s

were probably my greatest asset, bar the off-board 81mm mortars, but

were out of ammunition well before the end. I'm not convinced that the

marksmen achieved anything.

On the whole, I think this was a very realistic scenario. The Americans

were well-trained but disorganised due to the drop, and the Germans were

inexperienced and had a variety of moderately useful (or moderately

useless) weapons. Had I left the village unguarded, I probably would

have had an easier time of it, but I did feel that if Rett had been any

better a player, I would have been toast. I suppose we're both

moderately good players, so the fact that I came out marginally on top

indicates that the scenario is quite well balanced (prior to this I beat

him in another TCP game, but maybe due as much to luck and a bad force

selection on his part than anything else).

In terms of balance, up until the end I was going to say the Americans

have an advantage, but I'd have to conclude that it's about equal. In

terms of realism, it's fine - and if Rett had annihilated me, it would

probably have been all the more realistic.

[thats gamey!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Herr Oberst wrote:

(paraphrasing an ancient post by someone forgotten board member)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lawyer may be ancient, but unfortunately he's not that easy to forget...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Soddball wrote:

the problem is that players like Aitken may want to play a 'historical' game<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have clearly explained that historical accuracy is beyond what I would be capable of implementing even if I wanted to. I just like the games I play to make sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>David is an experienced and skilled enough player to know that these issues can crop up and knows enough to discuss these matters beforehand.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I resent the accusation that I am a skilled player!

[My MG's Can't Run Fast Enough for the Peng Challenge]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Stalin's Organ wrote:

And this would be why your own force consisted of nothing but armour and artillery of course??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you discount the two Sicherung companies, then yes, you are correct.

[thats gamey!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Juardis wrote:

OK David, what if I start it hitched then unlimbered it without moving my transport?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the thread, this has already been asked and answered.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Stalin's Organ wrote:

No - that's Gamey - you have to buy your OWN transport, and any attempt at ramming yuor foe will result in said transport stoping and backing off then trying to drive around him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But... but... by MSBoxer's logic, he started the ME with my guns hitched to his transport! That's even worse, using his points to buy gamey field guns, and then using my points to buy gamey field guns as well!!

[thats gamey!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>MSBoxer wrote:

Therefore I challange you to a duel at dawn. My pistol will be unholsterd and loaded. Yours will be locked in the truck of my car <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I will be behind the wheel of your car, travelling towards you at speed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Banshee wrote:

I forsee the "Aitken Rules of Meeting Engagements" being formed as we speak to written down in history alongside Fionn's Rule of 75. I am sure they will be excellent and make for good ME's!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aitken's Rules Of Absolutely Everything CM-Related

1) Field guns in Meeting Engagements must have transport and start hitched up.

How's that?

[thats gamey!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>MSBoxer wrote:

Spookster, please give me your address and I will send the SWAT team over to rescue you from the terrorists that have taken you captive and forced you to read all three pages of a discussion that you find so distasteful <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant, I couldn't have said it better.

[thats gamey!]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Kingfish wrote:

Any commander with half a brain would deploy a recon screen ahead of his main force. That screen would most likely locate the approaching enemy early enough to get his forces deployed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would think this the responsibility of the player, as the commander. If his reconnaissance were that good, he would already have dug in. A Meeting Engagement only makes sense to me as fresh contact between opposing forces, and whether or not recon units are involved is up to the player.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>MSBoxer wrote:

Exactly the point I made in my first post. By it's very nature it is not historical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, as I have argued, it is more realistic for a ME to be one situation than to be another. The more realistic situation is a head-on confrontation; the less realistic is that two sides should coincidentally have set out to claim unoccupied territory at exactly the same moment.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To follow you view to it's logical conclusion the guns must be limbered and far to the rear because historically support weapons did not travel with the front line be a few hundred yards behind. They were then brought up where they were needed most. Therefore these wepons must be hitched and at the very edge of the map, or if you wnat real accuracy they should not arrive until turn 2 or 3.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because we cannot achieve absolute realism does not mean we should abandon all attempts at realism. It is, if the more credible definition of a Meeting Engagement is to be assumed, much more realistic for guns to arrive hitched on turn 1, than to be ready-deployed on turn 1.