M Hofbauer
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Posts posted by M Hofbauer
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oh just want to add, this is of no little importance, that in windycity's case the benefit of doubt still tells me he was (trying to be) humorous. please read the above with this in mind, forgot to put it all into conjunctive tense.
in your (M. Dorosh) case, however, that benefit cannot be applied, since you are rather clear in your POV.
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I'm joining him in his desire to see some evidence that others used them. *shrug* </font>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:
Grog Dorosh, are you now joining him in claiming that kill rings are exclusive to german tanks? only King Tigers, maybe?
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I'm joining him in his desire to see some evidence that others used them. *shrug* </font>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:
Grog Dorosh, are you now joining him in claiming that kill rings are exclusive to german tanks? only King Tigers, maybe?
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Thanks Tactical Command for the answer !
w/r/t rexford, I actually had done a search, but nothing came of it, it seemed to me he simply ceased posting, and nobody seemed to notice or care, since there were no follow-ups inquiring about his absence.
I have to admit I almost feared something had happened to him.
I find it rather puzzling that such a prolific, valuable renowned content-poster such as rexford would disappear unnoticed or unmourned.
yeah I know Fionn was banned/unbanned all the time, therefore my guess was that even if he had been banned he might have been back or, like in earlier times, be banned from the public board but working with BTS/BF.C on the inside/behind the scenes.
may I ask a dumb question: why does a old-timer member who knows about all the good ol' times have such a shiny new membership?
lost your old password, eh?
anyhow, thanks for your reply !
take care
M.H.
[ October 03, 2006, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]
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above post of course in response to Dorosh.
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I was referring to his general attitude starting with his know-it-all, absolute NO (which would be okay if it wasnt total BS) and his subsequent attitude of
- denial that started with the quoted passage.if you think its reasonable to lead people astray by giving wrong info like that (and we are not talking about some fun topic like demo coming out or whatever, but historical facts), with subsequent impudent, saucy denial, when the application of due diligence of a simple google search would have instantly showed him that he was wrong, and sticking to it even after he had been shown some examples by helpful members, plus note he still hasnt acknowledged that he was wrong...
...then he is either intentionally acting like a jackass "ignorant", OR it is an attempt at humor.
hence my question.
or, Grog Dorosh, are you now joining him in claiming that kill rings are exclusive to german tanks? only King Tigers, maybe?
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btw, while we're at it (not that Im suggesting that htey were banned), Ive been wondering about this for quite some time, what ever happened to the - I guess universally respected - member rexford (Lorrin rexford Bird) ?
and Fionn ??
anybody remember him?
controversial but undoubtedly colorful character of the early days of CM...
anybody know ?
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well, that was a short stint for Lawrence.
despite being at odds (for a long time) with his mindset and opinion, I did (and do) respect Sabot for his knowledge and his outspoken mind.
Now I am not saying BTS isnt free top run their own board. But I think it is an unfortunate decision.
But I do think Sabot is a loss for the board, and would be a loss for ToW.
I hope for both ToW and Sabot that his ban from the board does not keep him from taking a look at Tow when it comes out. Both can only benefit from that.
He shall grow not old
as we that are left grow old
forum age shall not weary him
nor the postcount condemn
at the influx of new members
and the silent disappearance of others
still a few will remember him
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well currently they're busy banning people.Originally posted by Cincinatvs:And when will the demo be released
demo will be here...
"two weeks max."
mwahahaa... :cool:
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Molenaar OpticsOriginally posted by Rollstoy:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:
for those who still didnt get it:
nobody anywhere ever got Zeist opics.
Gerolaan 63 A
ZEIST
3707 SH
Nederland
"Zeist Optics" </font>
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dog mines ... please.Originally posted by THE Sabot:****I would just like to see mine dogs with kill rings..that could enter buildings, of course.
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NOPE!Originally posted by WindyCity:</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by M Hofbauer:
wrong.
off the top of my head, at least finnish armor sometimes sported kill rings, too.
Prove it [/QB]</font>
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for those who still didnt get it:
nobody anywhere ever got Zeist opics.
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I checked, and the site was actually from denmark, and the name of the site was
Examples of the Effect of Anti-tank Weaponry
but its url
http://www.web4you.dk/~wpa02127/ga/bd/bd.htm
is unfortunately dead now
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oh, in that case...Originally posted by Earl Grey:Seems plausible the Tiger has been painte in RAL 7008, then... though the mentioned person claims to have painted the Tiger with a Italian air force colour. Interesting...
see, Iam not familiar with the story of the "single green tiger", since I'm not into tanks that much.
but it is well known that the DAK often used the italian erbsengrün paint from their italian allies to paint the vehicles due to resupply shortages affecting the proper camo colors.
IIRC however that erbsengrün was an italian army color, not air force. it was the standard italian color muich like the germans had used dunkegrau or later dunkelgelb as the default color.
erbsengrün is a rather light and greyish green, bordering on dust colors AFAIK.
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there was a french site devoted entirely to pictures of destroyed tanks of WW II, it was themed something along the effects of tank guns or similar. lost the bookmark with my old computer. not sure if that site still exists, its been years that I last saw it. wait, I still might have the link on my PzF site...
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CM does this, at least a bit and using more of an intentional delay instead of concrete LOS check.Originally posted by THE Sabot:****You might not can see it, but the tank in the game can!...Point is: Tanks in the games have instant 360 degree target aqusition. It is impossible to use a "tank hunter" team or single soldier to rush from cover to cover to get into range for a shot. Even approched from the rear or what should be "blind spots", the tank will aquire and engage the inf instantly. Now, yes, you might try to blocking terrain to mask your entire approach, but then you wont have LOS to the target and might not even know its there in the first place.
****What Im saying is tanks need a reduced "situational awareness" while buttoned up.
LJ
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well, you're not quite there yet, but you've already come a long way from your original...Originally posted by luckyorwhat:Sabot, I think I get it now. Basically you find a bit of history, and then apply it to the game. So you know there is a camo scheme, and you know basically the pattern and the colours, and you interpret it on a vehicle.
I too was thinking about the detailed 'paint by numbers' diagrams that are out there for US woodland on vehicles, for comparison.
As well, can you give more information on the factory standard patterns, like 'Ambush'?
..., congratulations.Originally posted by luckyorwhat:I'm not sure about other nations, but for the Germans there was only 1 month (in 1944) where camo's were standardized and applied at the factories.
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exactly what I've been talking about, except for the minor detail of this being a Jagdpanther instead of a Tiger:Originally posted by THE Sabot:Ex:Sorry no color (my scanner ancient...Blaka nd white only) on this one (in the book is color):
you should have used the b/w parttern and called the result "Weisser Riese" or Moby Dick.
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note the emphasis, your conclusion is missing that critical term: "nach Muster" means according to prescribed standard patternOriginally posted by luckyorwhat:Let me quote another site in regards to camouflage patterns. Note how the maintenance sections were to apply the patterns according to the terrain. That's a lot of leniency.
"Late-war years
On 1943-02-18, it was ordered that all vehicles were to be painted in a base coat Dunkelgelb nach Muster (except for small equipment pieces, which were to retain the former colours). Over this, a camouflage pattern of Olivgrün (an RLM colour), Rotbraun RAL 8017 and Dunkelgelb nach Muster consisting of stripes was to be applied by the maintenance sections, according to the terrain. For this purpose, the paint was delivered as a paste, which could then be thinned with most liquids, and applied. Dunkelgelb nach Muster was later re-named Dunkelgelb RAL 7028, and Olivgrü was re-named Olivgrün RAL 6003.
there were general camo pattern schemes handed out and the crews usually more or less painted after the issued standard. that individual platoons or companies diverted from that does not mean that this general rule did not exist.
like Sabot pointed out, since the standard regulation pattern was applied by hand, there was some variation of it, but usually you can see the same stripe or color in the same spot on various tanks in the same Hinterhalt-pattern, for example. Its a "typical" sort of thing.
which is also why your conclusion here...
...is wrong.Originally posted by luckyorwhat:Eargrey this site here has drawings too, but ehy explain where the picture it is based on was taken: http://www.afvnews.ca/camouflage.html I'm sorry, but the three pictures you posted can't be real, or based on real tanks, because they are all almost identical. They seem to me to be more evidence of a lazy artist, than a standardized camo pattern.
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already Vfg. v. 17.3.1941 (HM 41, Nr. 281) has graugrün RAL 7008 as a supplemental color for the Afrika-Anstrich, however it was revised in Vfg. v. 25.3. 1942 (HM 42 Nr. 315).Originally posted by Earl Grey:There's even the myth about the Green Tiger of Tunisia - though someone claims to have been the guy to actually paint the tank with green camouflage colour...
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what SABOT is trying to tell you is that just because there is not ONE fixed pattern/scheme doesnt mean you have a carte blanche, you are not free to go and do whatever you please - and call it authentic (of course you are free to paint them purple with yellow splotches and green flowers for your own pleasure if you feel like it).Originally posted by luckyorwhat:I get the impression that they have to be historical, but I'm not sure what this means?
I could cite a whole shlew of H.Dv., Vfg. and HM instructions, rules and exceptions that had been issued, ignored, modified or revised over the pre-war and war years, but eventually it all boils down to this: your best bet is to look for a historical photograph and go from there.
which has already been touched upon in this thread.
Sabot's most valuable suggestion: --> "you should stick to schemes relevant to whatever units and timeframes you are trying to represent."
btw, I am positively impressed by The_Sabot's acumulation of knowledge in this area and his approach to the subject. No matter what one thinks about the person Sabot or his opinions, he really does need to be given credit for his approach to tank coloring.
just a few comments:
II 01 - Kommandeur II. Abteilung, to be more exactOriginally posted by THE Sabot:****Yes, nice Panther. Its in that book too. Its at the German Army Tank Museum. Its a Panther Ausf A outfitted to be a battalion command panzer. Be vary wary of museum schemes...this one is OK, but the great majority are WAY off base.
dead on about the museum tanks, though.
if I am not mistaken then the woodland camo and subsequently the three-color european camo while factory - applied were still painted manually, by humans. And there was variation, even if only very minor and subtle, even there.Originally posted by THE Sabot:****Speaking of standardization...yes at times there were factory applied schemes(Ambush is an example) but they were not really schemes as much as they were styles. Example: Back when M1A1s had factory woodland 3 color schemes (80's), Every one was identical...same pattern, same colors in the same places of the tank on all...
Tarnpasten olivgrün RAL 6003, rotbraun RAL 8017 and dunkelgelb RAL 7028. they did not have to be, but could be and usually were thinned before application. indeed they could be thinned with water or fuel. however, the water-based thinning was very impractical since it tended to wash off due to weathering.****Camo paint applied in the field varied widely in color also ans even the issued paint came in a paste form, to be mixed with water, turpentine, whatever...by the crew. differrent consistancy of the mixes and thinners resulted in different color shades. Also some people seemed to be more "artistic" with the spray gun than others!
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Nachmacher !Originally posted by RMC:It's not an FPS, what rule could there possibly be for skins? You'll get overhead icons of spotted enemy units. The actual camouflage value of the skinning of the models is irrelevant.
All my Panthers will be pink.
I think I'll do a blank white Sturmtiger and call it Weisser Riese.All my tigers will have Fahrschule kennzeichen. All of my StuGs will sport ads for Persil.
p.s.: Seine Waschkraft macht ihn so ergiebig.
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easy there.
if it makes you feel better add this:
mkay?
Officers interview
in Theatre of War
Posted
hehe. you could take out entire airfields all on your own. first you would take out the flak towers with the bombs and use the rest to damage the buildings, then you would land and shoot up the rest with the crew machine gunners.
(I played it a lot.....)