rexford Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Did the British ever shoot 6 pdr APCR in Africa or anywhere during the war? John Salt's compilation of penetration stats shows an April '43 Ministry of Supply memo with penetration data for 6 and 17 pdr APCR ammo at 30 degrees from vertical. I have never seen any reference to British APCR outside of the John Salt find. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I'm gonna lose grog points here, but ... what is the 'other' term for APCR? I have a copy of No. 2 ORS Report No.17, Analysis of German Tank Casualties in France 6 June to 31 August 1944 here that talks about 6-pdr DS, 6-pdr APCBC, and 17-pdr APCBC (more report details available on request, naturally). Hope that helps. Regards JonS 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by rexford: Did the British ever shoot 6 pdr APCR in Africa or anywhere during the war? John Salt's compilation of penetration stats shows an April '43 Ministry of Supply memo with penetration data for 6 and 17 pdr APCR ammo at 30 degrees from vertical. I have never seen any reference to British APCR outside of the John Salt find. AFAIK APCR was never standardised for any gun in British service. You'll also find lurking in my collection of PRO-thieved penetration stats figures for the 8-pounder gun, but that never saw service either; nor did the 32-pounder; pretty much likewise for the 3-inch 20 cwt in the AT role, although that may have got a couple of shots off in anger (I believe a few were issued in NA on 17-pdr carriages). All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: I'm gonna lose grog points here, but ... what is the 'other' term for APCR? "Panzergranate 40". All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I think there's even reference to a 6-pdr Littlejohn adaptor in there somewhere... All the best, John. [ September 21, 2003, 05:01 AM: Message edited by: John D Salt ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 Originally posted by JonS: what is the 'other' term for APCR?IMHO & IIRC & AFAIK; HVAP. YT D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted September 21, 2003 Author Share Posted September 21, 2003 Thanks for all the responses. APCR for 6 pdr would have called: Armor Piercing Composite Non-Rigid (APCNR) APCR and HVAP contain a tungsten core penetrator in a lightweight carrier, and the whole thing travels to the target. APDS is Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot, where the tungsten core penetrator travels to the target but the light weight carrier falls off just after the round exits the gun barrel. The problem with APDS may be due to the discarding sabot, where it is supposed to fall off in three pieces (?) but if one lags a little it throws off the inflight stabiity by introducing a wicked yaw (projectile nose is pointing away from the direction of travel). In British and American tests with 17 pdr APDS it would penetrate at a given impact velocity and then fail at a much higher velocity, which could be due to inflight instability (or could be due to tungsten shatter gap). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 21, 2003 Share Posted September 21, 2003 I once watched a fast-frame movie of a 17prd shot in flight and was amazed at how much it wobbled. I suppose this was before they were able to work out how to get the sabot to come away cleanly. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John D Salt Posted September 26, 2003 Share Posted September 26, 2003 Originally posted by rexford: Thanks for all the responses. APCR for 6 pdr would have called: Armor Piercing Composite Non-Rigid (APCNR) [snips]Errh, no it wouldn't. APCR (Armour Piercing Composite Rigid) is fired from parallel-bore guns. APCNR (Armour Piercing Composite Non-Rigid) is fired from tapered-bore guns, such as the Gerlich series or those fitted with a Littlejohn adaptor. The "non-rigid" part of the desigation refers to the fact that the outer part of the composite round is swaged down to the emergent calibre as it passes along the bore. All the best, John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rexford Posted September 26, 2003 Author Share Posted September 26, 2003 Thanks John. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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