SU 152 vs Panther Glacis at Kursk

[rexford]

We are developing face-hardened penetration figures for Russian APBC, and need combat data. The SU 152 at Kursk obtained the nickname "Zvierboy", or animal hunter, according to Advanced Squad Leader rulebook due to effectiveness against Panthers, Tigers and Elefants.

Did the SU 152 at Kursk defeat the Panther glacis or nose armor (front hull), and is data available on effective ranges against that armor.

Our current penetration data estimates and slope effect multipliers allow SU 152 to defeat face-hardened Panther D glacis at 1800m.

Thank you for assistance.

[Mr. Johnson--]

Well that data may be hard to come by. As most the Panthers at Kursk were knocked out in the first free days of the battle. And the Russians did not even need the SU-152 to deal with the Panthers because the Panther commander just drove his Panthers stright into one pak front after another.

Elefants on the northern front. Shouldn't be hard to find out about their action.

Plenty of Tigers around though. Probably the battle to see the most Tiger deployment.

[M Hofbauer]

rexford,

are you referring to real penetration by HEAT or AP ammo?

because I think the main reason the Zvierboy came to its name and reputation as a killer of heavy german tanks was not due to a "real" AP capability, but because the huge blast effect of its HE ammo would usually produce lethal structural damage to whole armor plates and structure breaking and ripping, turrets jamming and being torn off etc., rather than the usual "clean" Armor Penetration people think of when talking anti-armor capability.

[ 01-26-2002: Message edited by: M Hofbauer ]</p>

[Mr. Johnson--]

I'm pretty sure Rexford is concerned about the HE effect on the Panther.

Must be a pain in the ass to not be able to use any historical documents from the west before the fall of the soviet union when researching Kursk 43. The 2 diffrent histories must get confusing.

The Panther Regiment made up of the 51st and 52nd Panther abteilungen was commanded by Graf Strachwitz, the "Panzer-Loewe (Tank Lion). The Commander of Stab Panzer-brigade 10, Obest Decker had very bad things to say about the Panzer Lion. "Working with him is very unpleasent. During the attack, he simply did not come on the radio and operated indendently. This went so far that I was ordered to appear before General Von Knobelsdorff (commander of XLVIII Panzer Korps) to answer for the brigade HQ not functioning. In the interim, Starchwitz directed the Panzer-Brigade and employed the Panthers outright crazily. This resulted in continuos mine damage and flank protection was never built up." This taken from "Panzer Truppen 2" by Jentz. I could dig through "The Battle of Kursk" by Glantz too.

The WW2 website http://history.vif2.ru/ gives information on what weapons destroyed Panthers during Kursk. The information bears out that the Russians did not need the SU-152 to tackle the Panthers when the Panthers are exposing their rear and sides to 45mm and 76.2mm AT guns.

Also the SU-152 attacking from long range with many T-34s and KVs with artillery support, I would imagine it would be hard to see the how the SU-152 is proforming against the Panther. I could be wrong, but my surface scan of "The Battle of Kursk" by Glantz and house indicates only 3 SU-152 regiments on the southern front and in the reserves armies (Steppe front) of the battle of Kursk.