Beer_n_Pretzels Posted December 28, 2000 Share Posted December 28, 2000 I have playing Brits against the AI with a battlegroup that includes two Archers. Now I realise that the Archers were created as a stop gap vehicle to give Tigers and Panthers a Liverpool kiss, but have you seen the rate of fire for these guys? I don't have any scientific evidence, but in one match up my Archers took on a Stug and Hetzer front on and got of four shots at 600m before the first German shot. all the vehicles were veteran, the only difference was the Stug and Hetzer were buttoned. The end result was both German assault guns were destroyed for the loss of one Archer. Not a bad exchange rate. So my question, has anybody had any success with these 'funny' vehicles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 28, 2000 Share Posted December 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beer_n_Pretzels: So my question, has anybody had any success with these 'funny' vehicles?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not really, but I don't use it a lot. In your example, is it possible that the Stug and the Hetzer simply had not spotted the Archer? Also, the Hetzer has a low ROF, IIRC. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer_n_Pretzels Posted December 29, 2000 Author Share Posted December 29, 2000 Hi Germanboy, yes I think that the Stug and Hetzer just didn't see the Archers (even though they had a forward facing) because of they were buttoned up. However I had the same experience against two P-IVJ at 480m. The only difference was the P_IV were moving but they were not buttoned. In this case both Archers fired first and then got off another shot before the first German reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 29, 2000 Share Posted December 29, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beer_n_Pretzels: I had the same experience against two P-IVJ at 480m. The only difference was the P_IV were moving but they were not buttoned. In this case both Archers fired first and then got off another shot before the first German reply.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Madmatt (I think) posted at some point that turretless tanks rotate faster than slow turreted AFVs. You may have run into that. If you want to have an interesting experience, do this: create a scenario, 1.5x1.5km map, sparse woods, gentle slopes, village. Take two Vet Jagpanthers (after doing it once, maybe add a 75mm Pak 40, and a Jagdpanzer IV), and a Squadron of Regular Churchills (15 or 16 tanks) (VI and VII, but no VIII). Put the German tanks in a good ambush position, force the AI to play with that. Then play Allies. This actually happened in Holland in 1944, to 9 RTR. I have been experimenting with it during the last couple of days. Interesting results. When you have won (as you may be able to), ask yourself at what stage you would have stopped the attack as Allied squadron OC in Real Life. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer_n_Pretzels Posted December 29, 2000 Author Share Posted December 29, 2000 Thanks Germanboy, I'll give it a go sometime this week and get back to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer_n_Pretzels Posted December 31, 2000 Author Share Posted December 31, 2000 Hi germanboy, I did a quick mock up of the scenario you suggested. All I can say is... Ugly. very Ugly. Charging Jagdpanthers and trying to flank them with Churchills is a tough call. I lost 6 tanks out of 12 (churchill VII). Not pretty. And your right, they pivot and shoot damn fast... The biggest problem was that because the Churchills are so slow I couldn't do 'tophat' and 'loswky' with them. Of course the simple solution would have been to smoke them out and then hit them from all sides... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 I thought one of the recent patches increased the probability of turreted AFV's rotating in place to bring their front armor and gun to bear on enemy tanks faster. ------------------ War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 31, 2000 Share Posted December 31, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beer_n_Pretzels: Of course the simple solution would have been to smoke them out and then hit them from all sides...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Even doing that you will lose a lot of Churchills against the AI. I have to try something like that against a human player at some point. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer_n_Pretzels Posted January 2, 2001 Author Share Posted January 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: Even doing that you will lose a lot of Churchills against the AI. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Too right Germanboy. Churchillls are just too slow. Give me a cromwell IV anyday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ciks Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>yes I think that the Stug and Hetzer just didn't see the Archers (even though they had a forward facing)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> i think the germans were confused by the look of archer and could not figure out, what a hell that strange up-side-down-bathtub is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 2, 2001 Share Posted January 2, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beer_n_Pretzels: Too right Germanboy. Churchillls are just too slow. Give me a cromwell IV anyday! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Then again, they survive even 88s and 75L70s at close-ish ranges. Cromwells have this nasty tendency to just get knocked about by anything above rifle size (I had one knocked out by a side weak spot penetration from a 20mm AA gun...) ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer_n_Pretzels Posted January 3, 2001 Author Share Posted January 3, 2001 Yep, the cromwells get knocked out easily, especially flanks shots from just about anything. However it is thrilling to watch a Cromwell outrun a swivelling Panther Turret and then drill a shot into its nether regions...But your right, more often than not it get's taken out and it cannot take on any German tank frontally (except for the Lynx...) However their speee makes them very good for tophat and lowksy tactics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grobdeutschland Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 If you compare the buy bucks it will take to get a 17 pdr w/ transport I think people will start to like the Archer. I've done some testing & I feel on the defense the allies could really use that mobile Heavy AT gun, b/c that's what it really is. Yes, there are much better tanks, but for the same hitting power you will pay much more. Killing power is what the allies need. The germs can use Hetzers, which is also cost effective & have all the power they need to defeat Allied armor as a mobile backup/flank guard. The allies can use the Archer. Remember: small field of fire, place deep in S-woods (it has great ground Pressure & a small profile) to help hide it & retreat after 2 shots-have a pre-planned 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc...fire positions & support them w/INF, esp. w/AT teams. to cover their butts from those fast pumas. Now I know this makes it hard to work with, however, a good player can use one to great advantage. Comments please...hint, hint, (Germanboy, I/O, guy/w gun, Capt, anyone willing, thanks) ------------------ "Far better it is To dare mighty things... Then to take rank with Those poor, timid spirits Who know neither Victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt 1899 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grobdeutschland Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grobdeutschland Posted January 6, 2001 Share Posted January 6, 2001 Comments please...hint, hint, (Germanboy, I/O, guy/w gun, Capt, anyone willing, thanks) Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grobdeutschland Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 All right my last bump. I'm just wondering if anyone else has tested this thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Grobdeutschland: All right my last bump. I'm just wondering if anyone else has tested this thing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Honestly GD - I would like to try and use it in a PBEM, but I have not had the possibility lately. I will in the future and let you know about my experience with it in this thread. You have made me curious now (and curiosity will kill that PBEM for me, but what the hey). ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grobdeutschland Posted January 7, 2001 Share Posted January 7, 2001 GB, I'm testing it right now in a PBEM as well, I'll report results here as well. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer_n_Pretzels Posted January 7, 2001 Author Share Posted January 7, 2001 Hi GD and GermanBoy, Yes I too want to test the Archer in a PBEM. The Archer, deployed in pairs works very well against the AI, even knocking Panthers and Tigers frontally. I haven't tried a King Tiger of Jagdtiger - I give it a go and get back to you. The problem is that once the Archers have done a pop-up attack, any player worthy of the title "reasonably competent" would target them with off-map Mortars or Artillery. Moving to an alternate position is essential. Furthermore they are vulerable to 20mm guns at close range (ie. under 300m). Unlike other allied tanks, I think the ideal engagement range for a pair Archers (both firing at the same target) is 400-800 metres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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