The Portugal Option

[cruzzer]

First let me say that ive been having a great time playing, SC is really a great game.

As a strategic tactical game it excels, as a representation of WW2 it falls a bit short - ive seen this stated many times, and while this is something we have to live with, there are a few things that make no sense. :confused:

A favorite allied move is to invade portugal - with no reaction from spain. this is something that would never happen. as soon as allied troops landed in portugal spain (a neutral ally of germany) would mobilze and call for german help. this would allow the germans to setup before an overwhelming allied force was built up in and around portugal

maybe its just a pet peeve, but even 3R had some restictions that made sense and added a little more historic flair to the gameplay.

Also - north africa is a waste of time in this game - there is no room to maneuver or do anything except for algeria and iraq - defintely needs a little work

cruZZer

[Wachtmeister]

Didn't like the USA/UK battleships shelling your house in Lisbon during our game - eh.

Agree totally in historical terms. However, in game terms, where the USA and UK combined have the MPP output of Ecuador, The Allies are somewhat forced to take any available MPP source they can get, and there aren't many.

[Wildcat70]

I agree the allies are a a great economic disadvantage and while not historical they need to generate more mmps from somewhere. I'm currently playing my 3rd game of SC all my games have been 1939 scenario set on beginer with no handicap. In my first game I played the axis and managed to win just before the end of the game. My next game i played allies and *bows head in shame* the comp owned me mostly because I couldn't keep up with the massive amounts of troops the Axis threw at me. They made more of everything and could afford to invest in upgrades while I on the other hand had to save up for several turns to produce units and could not afford to research any up grades. In the game I currently playing now Im in some what the same situation however this time I spent most of englands money on techs ive got leve(5) jets and level(5) industry and still cant afford to match the axis in units. I took spain and port. and with a neutral V-france I have a nice choak point keeping the hun hoard at bay for now however his airforce can and is beating down my forces faster than I can replace them Ive got level (5) tanks with US but only makeing 180 a turn it takes many turn to save up unuf to buy a tank corp. so bascily I'm still screwed and will be going down soon as Russia is on its last leg and it won't be long before theres 10 air fleets hammering me a turn. so here I sit with 17+ years of war gameing experience getting owned again by a lousy AI set on beginer. I'm going to keep plugging way playing the allies untill I can figure out a way to give the Axis a decent game and if I can come up with anything worhwhile ill share it with you guys. also if anyone has come up with something good to do with the allies within the scope of the original patched game no alt scenarios ide be greatful to here about it

thanks

[Hueristic]

Originally posted by Wildcat70:

so here I sit with 17+ years of war gameing experience getting owned again by a lousy AI set on beginer.

thanks

LMAO that is too funny There a ****loads of threads here on ways beat the AI only u have to sift through them all and that can cause more stress than just plugging away at the ai.

[JerseyJohn]

WildCat70

The AI plays fairly passively in strategic terms. Sometimes, as in the Russian campaign, it will launch a sound and determined offensive, but is't weakness is in doing things like amphibious invasions.

If you have the Axis you can pretty much conduct all the historical invasions of '39 & 40 without any problems; from what I've seen the computer never invades the Low Countries as the Allies. One of the mistakes I've been making against the AI is to stop at Norway. You're better off sending a couple of armies with an HQ to Oslo (you'll also need to send two corps, one to garrison each city) and loan them two airfleets so you can take Sweden while you're at it. The extra plunder helps a lot and it only costs a few extra points against the U. S. and Soviet readiness.

From the '39 scenario I use the von Bock HQ for these campaigns as von Runstedt is little more able. Use your Scandanavian plunder to build those detatched units in the West and take Holland and France. From there you'll have numerous options to follow and the MPPs to finance them with.

The above strategy is only recommended against the AI. Many human players have developed very aggressive strategies to use as both sides and I've found it's best not to delay the Low Lands/French invasion against them, then go back for the minors afterwards.

After you've begun defeating the AI regularly on expert level the next step is the rude awakening against human opponents.

[ January 18, 2003, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Wildcat70]

JERSEY JOHN

thanks for the input but axis strat from 39 isn't the problem it's playing as the allies thats killing me. the Axis AI is not very agressive in both the games I've played all it does is take the low countries denmark and france then when Italy joins it takes Yugo then after a turn or two of build up it goes after russia. It dosent even bother with Nor,Swe or greece but its dosent seem to have to, the plunder and subsaquent income from those conquests alone allow it to overwhelm me with numbers and eventual win. Its lack of agression makes for long games both times I played the allies the games lasted till May of 47 at which time the games ended and the axis was given the wins even though the UK and US were both still in the game. The Ai is tacticaly foolish and quite passive at times but the fact that its an economic powerhouse makes up for it. I just cant match the amount of units that gre and ita can throw at me eventualy they wear me down I lose expensive units like air fleets and tank groups and it takes me turns and turns to save up and replace them I'm just starting my 4th game now 3rd as the allies and plan on trying some things in the med to maybe keep italy from pumping all its units into russia.I dont start with much to work with down there so it should be interesting.

Btw Ide just like to tell you your knowledge of History is quite impressive i've followed several threads where you have made many execlent posts the" what if "thread most recently has some execlent stuff in it by you ranging from aztecs to rome. I've read many a history tome myself and minored in it in college you sound like the kind of guy I could sit around with a six pack and talk history with for hours. you are one of the people, and there are a few others out there to that make this a great forum not just for SC but for hisory in general

[BriantheWise]

I agree with Heuristic....

This is just too funny.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I will....You can't criticize a game for bad AI, bad limitations and cry about how it is kicking your ass all in one sentence.

The Med: Fixed.

The play balance: Fixed.

The AI: Fair. A bit dim in many ways, but it works. As Allies, against the Axis at +2, I win. Kewl. I always do, and its no major. Set the minor neautrals to historical, you have a better game. Set no partisans, no free french, and siberian Russia, it gets dicey, even against the dim AI.

I have not beat that combo yet. Even knowing that the AI will not do a Sea Lion.

So shush, darlings, and whine less, read more. Learn from the experts and the Wise.

[JerseyJohn]

WildCat70

Thanks for the good word, appreciated and here's hoping we get together someday at a barbeque with those six packs.

Agreed on the AI's inablity to properly handle the Axis. Playing the AI regularly, from either side, leads to bad habits that make it more difficult to play humans.

One way around this is to create scenarios designed for the AI to play a specific side, give it various advantages, and play it with the Fog of War option off allowing it to know where everything is. It still won't play as well as a human but playing it will be more challenging.

[ January 19, 2003, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Wildcat70]

BRIANTHEWISE

Wow that is pretty harsh. I suppose I may be comming off as criticising the game but thats really not my intention. After only 4 times playing I allready love this game. Also by stateing the flaws in the AI play while at the same time aknowdlgeing that I have yet to beat it playing the allies was me being humble and not intended to come off as whiny.My goal is to beat the Axis in the original 1939 patched scenario(not in one of the more evenly matched 1939 mods that are out there) when I can do this I feel I'll then be ready to take on Human opponents.You apear to be a far more compentent player than I as you've stated that you can beat the Axis easily on the hardest setting. Maybe my brains gone soft from too much RTS play and not enuf real stratigic play and thats why I am struggling right now. The only real stratigic gameing I've been able to do latley is a once a month game of Paths of Glory with my one gameing buddy as our other commitments and schedules don't permit for more that that right now and Paths of Glory plays a lot different that SC so maybe I'm in the wrong mind set Oh well Im rambling now that all.

[JerseyJohn]

Wildcat70

Don't take any of these things seriously. To begin with there are many quirks in the game that take getting used to, such as movement.

For example, there's a tendancy to move a piece on the assumption that one or more other units can be brought in place for support but it turns out the second phase doesn't work and now your forward pieces are exposed. It happens to everyone.

If you're having game problems, especially with the allies, slow down and play conservatively. The game can contue till mid-1947. By then, if you play patiently against the AI you ought to be able to get the upper hand.

Durint the first ten or so games you can only develop a feeling of how to play this thing. It becomes easier later on. Meanwhile, keep reading postings by more experienced players and after a while you'll pick up improved techniques for both sides.

[BriantheWise]

Hey Wildcat,

It was a bit harsh. Harsher than I intended it.

I apologize for that.

I guess I was just trying to say hey wake up!

The AI will not be as smart as a human player. But at least it moves faster and is there waiting for you when you turn on the game. And, the SC AI is a lot smarter than the AI in most complex games I've played. So I commend it (still, wish the German AI could do Sea Lion, but since it can't, I accept that as a strategic limitation, along with others).

I personally am amazed at how many times I can keep playing this game over and over and again.

That's a sign of a great game. And the funny thing is, I haven't even made much progress towards playing the scenarios.

Keep at it, Wild Cat. I'll play you live some time and when asked, show you a trick or two, but only if you ask and only in fun.

And keep posting too. We like newbie comments. It lets us pretend us oldbies are smart.

Brian

[Wildcat70]

BriantheWise

Thanks and no hard feelings. I finally beat the Axis. It was a strange game though I had it set beginner, 0 bonus, neutral minors, random russia. I invaded Siclay before the fall of france bringing Italy in early and a strange thing happened the axis took paris with a Italian unit thus giving Italy the French plunder and income. This changed everything. With no Axis minors and Italy takeing France instead of Germany I was able to win by late 44. It was a wild ride. I'm now feel ready to increase the difficulty a bit and add the minors back in however,I still feel I'm not ready to take on a human yet.It will probaly take a few more games to really get my feet wet. I look forward to takeing you up on your offer of a game and any tip or pointers you may have to offer after I'm a little more aclimated with the game. I turned my friend who I tabletop with on to this game and were going to try a hotseat game next time we get togeather. Thanks for the encouagement this is a great board and I'll definatly be sticking around.