Italy Option

[PrivateSlovik]

Don't know is someone else posted this already, but here's a way to beat the AI fairly consistently.

1)Hold France about six turns. I like to disband UK bombers and Fr. air fleet to put more armies around Paris.

2) Strip Mediterranean. On first turn transport ground units from Alexandria, then Algeria, then Gibraltar and that southern french city. Send them all and naval units toward Rome, one going to east coast to unload opposite Rome. Operationally move Gibraltar air to southern France. Move air fleets south later too if you can spare any.

Once things are in place, declare war on Italy, pound Rome with naval and air units, then unload corps all around it for ground attacks. If all goes well you can have Italy's 105 MPP without it getting to fire a shot.

This could work well against a human too, as long as Italy is neutral Germany has no way to see what's happening in Med. and no way to affect it. Of course the time I tried it pbem my opponent was better, France started folding and Italy jumped in early with all my units still on transports off the coast, ouch!

Yes, its gamey, but its at least quasi-historical. UK and France discussed the idea in 1940 but events in France soon made it moot.

[ June 03, 2002, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: PrivateSlovik ]

[veki]

This is very imaginatively and good plan but it seams to me a very big problem for a game. To my opinion it is a problem which can destroy game itself because Axis player can not prevent this and can be at start in hopeless position. You should inform game creators about this. :confused:

[Guanoman]

I also was wondering about the wisdom of allowing a declaration of war at any point in your turn.

In my opinion, after you click end turn, there should be another box that pops up and asks if you have any declarations of war. This means the other countries would be able to react before you attacked them.

Further, some may say they like the ability to launch surprise attacks like this, so declarations of war DURING the turn would be allowed, but with severe political penalties.

Thus, the only programming changes needed would be to give a penalty for in-turn declarations of war, add another declaration of war phase AFTER the end-turn button has been pressed, and adjust the AI to compensate (probably the hardest part).

[grimlord]

while this option will work against the AI...heck the ai cannot even take france from me and i do nothing special...it absolutely will not work against a half way comp human (in this scenario that is)...you just cannot get enough to rome in the 3-4 turns that you have before france falls and the germans will reinforce italy if you do not get it in turn one....now in the full length game this is another story and with the amount of time you very well might be able to do....no way to know yet....

its definitely a neat idea but pbmail will kill

the one thing that i really agree is that it is to easy to overpower someone on the dec war turn....the previously neutral's armies really should begin at least somewhat entrenched...

another thought...the force structure of the neatrals should be looked at as well and perhaps adjusted...swede, turkey, and spain are far to weak and easy to roll over than is historic....

[Ancient One]

Originally posted by grimlord:

another thought...the force structure of the neatrals should be looked at as well and perhaps adjusted...swede, turkey, and spain are far to weak and easy to roll over than is historic....

Amen!

[pzgndr]

This sounds like another good argument to make neutral Italy and Russia active players. From the start, they should both be able to build units, deploy their defenses, conduct research, and perhaps fight minor campaigns if they choose. Italy could attack Greece and Russia could attack Turkey, for instance. Not wise, but possible. Regardless, they shouldn't have to be completely blind and unable to act until war is declared. And on the flip side, why should we have to settle for a default setup for attack when Italy and Russia get around to declaring war? Shouldn't we be able to prepare and take advantage of the element of surprise?

[Specterx]

The specific problem of "gamey" invasions could be solved very easily. Right now, SC assumes that the capture of a country's capital somehow triggers the surrender of the entire country, which alone was <b>never</b> enough. Requiring the capture of, say, 2/3 of a country's territory in addition to occupying the capital will fix this nicely.

[grimlord]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

This sounds like another good argument to make neutral Italy and Russia active players. From the start, they should both be able to build units, deploy their defenses, conduct research, and perhaps fight minor campaigns if they choose. Italy could attack Greece and Russia could attack Turkey, for instance. Not wise, but possible. Regardless, they shouldn't have to be completely blind and unable to act until war is declared. And on the flip side, why should we have to settle for a default setup for attack when Italy and Russia get around to declaring war? Shouldn't we be able to prepare and take advantage of the element of surprise?

i concur completely...the italians should be allowed to "be in the game" from the getgo....the italians new they would join hitler it was just when...they should be allowed some production and be allowed to set up as they please....

the russians however were completely suprised by hitler and their defense showed it...however if the germans should pursue a policy that brings the warsetting to say 80-85% then yes they should be allowed to change their position...

and both sides should be allowed to set up their forces if they declare war...if played by humans of course russia or italy is going to want to hve their forces set up as to be most benificial in the event of their own declaration...only makes sense...

[FuChu]

Originally posted by Specterx:

The specific problem of "gamey" invasions could be solved very easily. Right now, SC assumes that the capture of a country's capital somehow triggers the surrender of the entire country, which alone was <b>never</b> enough. Requiring the capture of, say, 2/3 of a country's territory in addition to occupying the capital will fix this nicely.

Where did you find the rule for a country loosing it's capital to instantly surrender? I have looked and cannot find it and I am wondering if this is not a completely true statement. Due to some demo games I have played I have taken capital cities but the country has not surrendered till later? Is there a time delay of some sort and this is what you are talking about?

[pzgndr]

the russians however were completely suprised

True, but the record indicates the Russians were in the middle of deploying their army for a surprise declaration of war of their own against Germany in July 41. Hitler concealed the buildup of forces and beat them to it. Russia thought the bulk of the German army was busy in Western Europe, the Balkans, and North Africa. With FOW in SC, you could also come to this conclusion if the Germans are careful. (Gotta love FOW!)

If the spotting rules would preclude seeing anything other than adjacent units on the border of a neutral country, ie no air recon, then neither side would really know what's going on. This would be fine. It would give both sides a chance to prepare for war in secrecy.

[Wolfpack]

Originally posted by FuChu:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Specterx:

The specific problem of "gamey" invasions could be solved very easily. Right now, SC assumes that the capture of a country's capital somehow triggers the surrender of the entire country, which alone was <b>never</b> enough. Requiring the capture of, say, 2/3 of a country's territory in addition to occupying the capital will fix this nicely.

Where did you find the rule for a country loosing it's capital to instantly surrender? I have looked and cannot find it and I am wondering if this is not a completely true statement. Due to some demo games I have played I have taken capital cities but the country has not surrendered till later? Is there a time delay of some sort and this is what you are talking about?</font>

[Mannheim Tanker]

The easiest solution is to have a rule like we have in Europe Aflame: you can't DW and attack a neutral nation on the same turn. This "frees" the neutral nation's army to position itself for a proper defense. It balances the game by preventing someone from completely blindsiding you.

[pzgndr]

you can't DW and attack a neutral nation on the same turn

Not a good solution here. I can't see the Germans having to wait a turn before attacking Denmark, for instance, nor having to suffer Russian attacks for a turn before commencing a "surprise" blitzkrieg.

The problem in SC is Italy and Russia not able to have an active role while neutral. This worked well in 3R/A3R. Italy was free to DW anytime, but in SC perhaps a political event threshold could be considered. Russia was restricted to the historical date or if Germany's east front garrison fell below a limit. Both were able to pursue campaigns against minors without getting drawn into the main war. These ideas should be considered in SC.

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> you can't DW and attack a neutral nation on the same turn

Not a good solution here. I can't see the Germans having to wait a turn before attacking Denmark, for instance, nor having to suffer Russian attacks for a turn before commencing a "surprise" blitzkrieg.

</font>

[pzgndr]

The defender deserves at least a fighting chance to position units before the attack

OK, I understand. This gets back to the free setup issue in general. By limiting us to all these default setups, we don't get to make these choices. Maybe not a big deal with the minors, but certainly for Italy and Russia.

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by Bill Macon:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The defender deserves at least a fighting chance to position units before the attack

OK, I understand. This gets back to the free setup issue in general. By limiting us to all these default setups, we don't get to make these choices. Maybe not a big deal with the minors, but certainly for Italy and Russia.</font>

[Dan Neely]

Originally posted by Mannheim Tanker:

The easiest solution is to have a rule like we have in Europe Aflame: you can't DW and attack a neutral nation on the same turn. This "frees" the neutral nation's army to position itself for a proper defense. It balances the game by preventing someone from completely blindsiding you.

IF you're refering to Ulver and Marks TOAW scenario, the victim doesn't have a chance to redeploy it's army before being attacked either. The one turn delay in the house rules is because the Theater Option that releases the victims army isn't executed until the begining of the next axis turn. The order of events is: turn N: axis player selects the declare war theater option, and ends his turn without crossing the border or attacking. The allied player does his turn N, but doesn't have any indication that the axis has declared war, and is unable to move the victims army. Turn N+1: the Event Engine removes the yellowbars allowing the victims army to be moved. Axis turn begins and the axis player attacks often siezing the capital and ignoring the victims other forces. Then the allied player opens his turn and sees in the news/replay that the axis has declared war on victim and possibly has taken the capital. If the capital is in axis control the allied player then has a single turn to retake it before the victims armys disband. In the case of minor countries, the allied player rarely can take the capital back becuase paratroops were used to block the retreat of the defenders in the capital, resulting in them evaporating instead of withdrawing. The paratroops are typically dug in, and can typically hold out long enough to prevent any troops in the vicinity from being able to counter attack the force in the capital until there's too little time left in the turn for them to liberate it.

THe one turn delay is to allow the allied player to be able to counter attack the same turn as the axis invasion begins.

[Ancient One]

I'm strongly against any turn delay for DoWs. If there is a problem with surprise invasions of Sweden, US, Italy, etc., the problem could be partially alleviated by reducing the supply for newly landed units to 5 instead of 10 (I wonder why nobody else thought of this solution). Also, some countries should start off with some of their units already entrenched.

[ June 05, 2002, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Ancient One ]

[Guanoman]

I think the real problems are that: 1) Italy starts out with $0, so can't even rebuild the losses she suffers on a surprise invasion; 2) Italy can't exercise any discretion in the setup of her forces; leading to 3) The Allies can easily cut off Rome by ground from Northern Italy (and more importantly, Germany) which prevents any operational movement to reinforce Rome.

And I tried this "sneak attack" again last night, but with only British forces. It was very easy. I didn't manage it in one turn, it took two. But that wasn't much of a factor, since no Germans could move to Rome and Italy didn't have any money.

There are a few potential solutions: 1) allow the player/computer to set up the forces with the knowledge of what is going on around him; or 2) limit declarations of war to only happen at the end of the turn (perhaps allowing these "surprise" declarations with a heavy diplomatic penalty).

So there are a few possible fixes.

[USGrant]

I tried a similar tactic last night against Russia. I floated about 5 corps in the Baltic and landed along the coast between Riga and Leningrad immediately upon DOW. It seemed to work well - then the demo ended

The same issue applies, no chance for the Russian to respond under the default setup. I don't have a solution, other than the suggestion that newly landed troops have very low supply. Unfortunately, this "solution" might make Overlord overly weak. A free setup phase could be implemented, but that might make surprise attacks too weak.

I was playing Europa Universalis II and one thought came to mind - territorial waters for neutrals. Perhaps the hexes immediately adjacent to the coast of neutrals could somehow be made off-limits to combatants? You could DOW and move there on the same turn, and the existing turn delay on invasions would take care of the response issue. I think most neutrals would not have enough default troops to stop invasion, but their response might be more coherent.

I'm not sure that would work at this map scale. It might block some legitimate maneuvers such as German invasion of Norway without DOW on Denmark. I guess it would also close the Straits of Gibraltar. If the "territorial waters", shaded lighter blue, were hand-picked by the designer it might have the desired effect while allowing "sea lanes" to exist where appropriate.

Well, there's some food for thought