And again : Gun accuracy

[Scipio]

I've read an articel (by Wolfgang Fleischer, Waffen-Arsenal S-54) about the 7.5 AT-gun 40 and the first experience with it at the front.

6-12 shots on a distances of 1000-1500m were necessary to shot down an enemy tank. And this result was already seen as very good. The 7,5AT-gun97/38 needed double so much! So much about 'guns are not accurate enough in CM' (mea culpa). It seems they are still to accurate.

And here are some casualty stats:

in 1943 7334 ATG40 were produced, 2332 destroyed

in 1944 10937 were produced, 7579 destroyed

[Tero]

Originally posted by Scipio:

6-12 shots on a distances of 1000-1500m were necessary to shot down an enemy tank.

Did it list any figures for distances under 1000m ?

The 7,5AT-gun97/38 needed double so much!

That was propably due to the fact that the AP shot with the 97/38 had a mean recoil. The undercarriage was the same as was used for the 50mm PAK38 and it was prone to be damaged under stress. IIRC the Germans called it the Mustang.

Finnish 75mm 97/38 gunners were instructed to use HEAT instead of AP as it was effective enough at average combat ranges (15 - 1000 meters) and the recoil was not as violent.

So much about 'guns are not accurate enough in CM' (mea culpa). It seems they are still to accurate.

That applies only to tanks with fast turrets and stabilizers while firing on the move.

The average combat range in CM is well below 1000 meters.

AT guns do not get any concealment/ambush bonuses in targeting.

AT guns expose themselves too eagerly to trivial infantry targets.

And here are some casualty stats:

in 1943 7334 ATG40 were produced, 2332 destroyed

in 1944 10937 were produced, 7579 destroyed

Interesting. Thank you. I'm sure I can use this info elsewhere.

[rexford]

Good material on 75L46 ATG.

75mm L48 tank gun had very large constant aim dispersion, so shots would vary quite a bit from trajectory (high and low, left and right). 75mm L46 anti-tank gun might vary by even greater amounts: 88L56 Flak was much less accurate than Tiger 88 due to ground mount having significantly greater shot scatter.

Doesn't say what the targets were: T34 or KV-I. Were targets partially obscured by ground folds so target area was reduced in size? Were ATG crews under attack from HE rounds while they fired, which could affect accuracy. How experienced was ATG crew, and did it suffer casualties?

Since it was first experience with 75L46 at front, probably after using 50L60 or 37L45 ATG, it might be natural for crews to have trouble with bracketing, rate of fire and with a whole lot of others factors that can mess up accuracy. It could be like Dirty Harry going from his magnum revolver to a derringer.

There are many factors that surround the interpretation of single combat event results, although it took 88L56 Flak units 10 shots per kill against T34 at 2000m. 6-12 shots per kill at 1000m-1500m for 75L46 ATG looks consistent with 88 Flak report.

[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: rexford ]

[Tero]

Originally posted by rexford:

6-12 shots per kill at 1000m-1500m for 75L46 ATG looks consistent with 88 Flak report.

Agreed.

BTW: what is also missing the number of hits. You could hit the target several times without actually killing it. They might get the first hit with the 3rd shot but kill the target with the 12th shot.

[tools4fools]

I did once a test with ten Nashorns (veteran) lined up against ten unarmed Shermans ( locked up in "rough" and showing their back to the Nashorns to avoid throwing smoke). Each pair seperated by a line of tall pines and in a perfectly flat and open ground at a range of around 1900 meters. All of the Shermans were usually hit (not necessarily knocked out) by the end of the first turn (or to say 5-6 shots). One or (seldom) two sometimes were still a live and needed more shots (up to 18).

I found the accuracy of those guns not bad at all, but then this was on a stationary target.

I had no time yet to run the same test aginst a moving target or let the Shermans shoot at the Nashorns. This would actually be interesting to give a comparison in accuracy between the regular 75 and the long 88.

What was odd is that I tried the test first at a range of 2500 meters - and the vehicles did NOT spot each other!!!