Archer -- History

[Maastrictian]

I've always like the Archer -- its got a sort of quirky appeal. I'm interested in its operational history. This was discussed a bit here but I still have some questions.

von Lucke wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

The Archer was the first armored design to mount the 17lbr --- on a Valentine chassis way too small for the gun. The British used what they had at the time (mid '42), and the only way to get it to fit was backwards. Amazingly enough, some 650 of the things were built, and they actually saw service from about October of '44 on, as what was intended as a stop-gap solution proved to be a long-term success.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The above passage implies that the Archer was the first attempt to put the British 76mm into an armored chassis (this is my understanding as well). So why were Fireflies (using the same) gun avalible in June '44 while the Archer wasn't used until October?

Also, did Fireflies or Archers see service in north africa or Italy? When?

Thanks!

[ 04-18-2001: Message edited by: Maastrictian ]

[Jeff Duquette]

I vaguely recall running across an AAR of a Firefly KO'ing a Tiger in Italy. I will see if I can dig it up.

[Jeff Duquette]

Here it is...I printed this off the internet awhile ago...the site seems to have disappeared since. To bad. Best to print this stuff as you come across it...one never knows when the site will disappear. Anyway here is the scanned and OCR'd report.

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Firefly in Italy "From Middle East AFV Technical Liaison Letter 25 16 December 1944-

3. Sherman 17 Pdr (lc)

About 100 of those are now in the theatre and issues have been made to 2nd and 7th Armd

Bdes as well as 5th Can and 4th N.Z. Armd Bdes. Operational experience is scanty but

certain points have already come up: -

The ammunition bin in the co-drivers compartment is of such a size and construction that

it cannot be removed from the vehicle without removing the turret. This operation is

necessary in order to carry out repairs to the right hand front steering brake. M.W.E.E.

have a project for

investigating and suggesting a remedy and it appears probable that it will be necessary

to make this bin of bolted instead of welded construction so that it can be dismantled

and removed piecemeal.

R.A.C.T.D. have also hid some experience with Sherman lc and have brought up a number of

points. Their remarks, suggested remedies and comments by HQ R.A.C. have been circulated

to ail holding units and are reproduced as Appendix "A".

2nd Can Armd Regt of 5 Can Armd Bde have the following user comments:-

The crew found the turret space rather confined. This did not interfere with efficiency

in action but it proved very tiring as there is less room for "relaxation" than in the

normal Sherman.

Considerable practice is required in crew drill for the handling of amn. The driver

plays an important part in this. The same regt gives the following operational account.

1. This regt received 4 Sherman lc Tks, during a lull in battle, on 5 Oct 44.

2. After some discussion, it was decided to allot them all to one sqn, on the basis of

one per tp. Since the tp ldr normally leads his tp in the sort of close country in which

we are now operating, it was decided that the 17 pdr Shermans would be given to the Tp

Sgts. (Sqn org - 4 tps each 3 tks).

3. Instr was commenced as soon as the kit had been checked. One offr and one sgt had

just returned from a 17 pdr course at RACTD, having been flown both ways, and, in

addition, a very competent sgt-instr from RACTD was attached to the Regt. It was not

possible to inci firing in the brief trg progam.

4. On 14 Oct the 17 pdr tks saw their first action when this sqn provided close sp for

an inf bn (H & PE) in an advance beyond SCOLO RIGOSSA. In the first afternoon this force

gained approximately 1500 yds against stubborn resistance. Although the 17 pdr tks were

kept rearmost in their tps, they were called upon to shoot up many houses and dug-outs,

and the HE shell was found to be about the same as the 75mm. In the opinion of one tp

sgt it "seems to knock out the back wall of the house"

5. An opportunity to observe its hole-punching capabilities came late in this first

afternoon. One of the tp cpis spotted a Panther at about 300 yds range. He indicated it

to his tp sgt and meanwhile fired one round of 75 mm AP at it. The tp sgt's gunner

reports that as he laid the 17-pdr on the Panther, its turret was swinging slowly

towards him and, as be fired, was still roughly 30 degrees off. Four rounds of 17-pdr AP were fired, all scoring direct hits. The Panther did not brew up, our own inf patrols,

fearing recovery by the enemy, set fire to it during the ensuing night.

6. The remains of this tk may be seen at BULGARIA (mr 656045). There are two clean holes

in it and three "gouges". One hole is in the side of the gun barrel, approx 3 in from

the mantlet; since there is no hole out the other side of the barrel, and judging from

the angle of penetration about 60 deg from normal) it seems probable that this AP round

entered the turret via the breech of the gm. The other hole is in the side wall of the

turret. "