Germans find new use for historic "castle" site.

[von Lucke]

What, nobody here has read Castle Keep by William Eastlake?

It's December 1944, and a detachment of GI's are sent to Belgium to guard an ancient castle full of art treasures --- unfortunately, it's right in the path of the German "Bulge" offensive!

The book is kind of an anti-war satire along the lines of Catch-22, and is full of memorably strange characters: The one-eyed Amer-indian Major who leads his men into combat on horseback, and the mechanic who falls in love with a VW beetle, and the baker who decides to quit the war and just make fresh bread...

And for those of you who don't have time to read, I think it also came out as a movie back in 1969, with Burt Lancaster and Peter Falk.

[This message has been edited by von Lucke (edited 07-10-2000).]

[Guest Pillar]

The coolest part about this thread is all the book recommends that have came up.

Many things here that haven't been mentioned in the previous threads on good books.

I've already got "Fortress" on order

[XPav]

The castle scenario is now available from the front page of www.pavloff.net

Have fun.

[Guest Pillar]

Thanks!

Just a note for people using it in Winter, I had to modify the texture for the walls. Otherwise, the castle looks unrealisticly "iced" in.

So unless you want the magical ice kingdom castle, you've got to modify the textures

[This message has been edited by Pillar (edited 07-10-2000).]

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

I would argue that it took until at least the 19th century to reach the standards of Roman engineering in Western Europe.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we could quibble over dates, but...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Until that time, some of the major roads were still the original ones put in by the legions 1800 years earlier. For similar scale public projects, the Autobahn in Germany and the Hoover Dam in the US come to mind. Roman combat engineers bridged the Rhine in about 50 BC, and we still are not quite sure how they did that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...there's quite a lot you can do with muscle power if you're not in a hurry. The Egyptians did some pretty impressive things too, as did several New World civilisations.

What impressed me the most about the Romans was what they could do when they *were* in a hurry. When the Legions were on the march, every afternoon they would build a fortified camp for the night, complete with a palisade wall. Mind you this was after marching umpteen miles, carrying their arms, their armor, and whatever other kit they'd brought along. I don't know what those guys were smoking, but it smoked!

Michael

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I don't know what those guys were smoking, but it smoked!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it was water & vinegar and sweet, nourishing gruel with fish-sauce...

The marching camps and high-speed siege work skills were absolutely impressive for sure.

Have you ever read 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire' by Gibbons? To me there was a pervading sadness about the accomplishments of the ancients and the loss of quality of life shining through in his book.

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Andreas

[tss]

I just made few calculations that compare the muzzle energies of few guns. The first gun is a 24 lbr 1/2-cartaun from Gustav II Adolph's 1630 artillery system. The guns of this size formed the bulk of the siege artillery in 16th - 17th centuries. The other two guns are Russian 45 mm AT gun (m. 1937, I think) and 8.8 KWK 42 (the King Tiger gun).

The caliber of the 1/2 cartaun was 152mm and the projectile weighted 24 lbs (10.0 kg according to "Vanhat Tykit" by Paulaharju. Apparently they used lighter pounds then than today). Its muzzle velocity is not known but it may be approximated to 450-500 m/s. Here I use value 500 m/s. Given these figures, the muzzle energy E_m of the gun is 10kg*(500m/s)^2 = 2.5 MJ. The round cannonballs lost speed very quickly but let's suppose that it hits the target with the same speed that it had when it emerged from the muzzle. Then, dividing E_m by the area of the cross-section A of a cannonball, we get the ratio E_m/A = 13.8 kJ/cm^2.

An AT shot of the 45 mm "scourge" weighted 2.4 kg and its muzzle velocity was 760 m/s, giving E_m = 1.4 MJ. Quite surprisingly, a 17th century gun had actually larger muzzle energy than a pretty good early WWII gun. However, for a "scourge" the ratio E_m/A = 87 kJ/cm^2 so the punch of the gun is concentrated in much smaller area.

For a 8.8cm KWK the corresponding figures are 1000 m/s and 10.2 kg, giving E_m = 10.2 MJ and E_m/A = 167.8 kJ/cm^2.

The projectiles of old guns lacked the necessary punch to penetrate the stones of Medieval castle walls. Instead, the shock waves of many cannonball hits slowly disintegrated the mortar that held the stones in place and finally caused the walls to topple. A common practice in late Medieval times was to build a wall by constructing two relatively thin stone walls very close to each other and filling the area between them by earth. Walls constructed this way could be collapsed by cannon fire much easier than full-stone walls. The muzzle energies that are presented above seem to indicate that it would have still taken some time to bring down Medieval walls using modern direct-fire guns. (Heavy artillery with anti-concrete shells is completely different matter, however).

- Tommi

[Guest Pillar]

How do the concrete busting shells work exactly?

[tss]

How do the concrete busting shells work exactly?

They are basically HE shells with stronger casing (supposing that I got the English term correctly) and delayed fuzes. The casing helps the round to penetrate deep into the concrete before it goes off. Oridinary HE shells explode on or near the surface of the wall and a lot of energy is wasted.

- Tommi

[Guest Pillar]

Did anyone manage to do anything interesting with this map?

[XPav]

I played it.

The Americans, as it stands, can not win. And that's with the American troops sneaking in the back way.

I don't think that this is a workable scenario. Maybe if you built a castle our of building, it might, because artillery could light them all on fire to allow tanks and such to get through.

And besides, CM doesn't model boiling oil. How can you have a realistic castle scenario without boiling oil?

[Guest Pillar]

Hehe, yeah, I really wish it did

The scenario as it stands isn't playable, I agree.

The map however is where the value is, if at all. I'm hoping someone will go a head and modify the units.

I couldn't get the units to set up in the right spots. I don't know why the heck it is that the computer starts them east/west even though the "map friendly sides" and setup zones are north/south.

Anyhow, feel free to mod and let me know how it goes

(Thanks for the feedback, haven't heard a peep outta anyone else)

[tss]

And besides, CM doesn't model boiling oil. How can you have a realistic castle scenario without boiling oil?

Easily. Contrary to popular belief boiling oil was only rarely if ever dropped from walls. The reason: cost. Boiling water, hot sand, and quicklime were almost as effective and much cheaper.

- Tommi

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar:

I don't know why the heck it is that the computer starts them east/west even though the "map friendly sides" and setup zones are north/south.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Err, you can do that yourself, just go into the map preview mode after you selected the units. They will appear at the baseline and you then just place them where you want them to be on the map at the start of the scenario. No limitations.

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Andreas

[Guest Pillar]

Great! Thanks Germanboy.

How do you get tanks to "dig in"?

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Err, you can do that yourself, just go into the map preview mode after you selected the units. They will appear at the baseline and you then just place them where you want them to be on the map at the start of the scenario. No limitations.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct, but I think part of the problem might be that Pillar is setting the 'friendly' sides of the map in the parameters area, but when creating the map, you also have go into the setting "Zone Mode" in the map area, and redraw the Allied and Axis 'setup zones'. The scenario creator's default is to always make the east side the Allied setup zone, and the west side the Axis setup zone. 'Repaint' the whole map as grey (neutral), and then select each zone and paint in where you want units to begin.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[Guest Pillar]

I did the zoning correctly. I guess I have to go in and place the units in their zone manually, as an initial setup default.

I noticed too that sometimes when you have more units than zone space (or slightly close to it), the computer sometimes boots some of the units out of the initial zone.

If you're lucky, those will be good scout units and can get a head start on their job.

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pillar:

I did the zoning correctly. I guess I have to go in and place the units in their zone manually, as an initial setup default.

I noticed too that sometimes when you have more units than zone space (or slightly close to it), the computer sometimes boots some of the units out of the initial zone.

If you're lucky, those will be good scout units and can get a head start on their job.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, didn't mean to leap to conclusions, just something I encountered when I toyed with the Scenario Creator. Carry on!

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[Guest Pillar]

No appologies necessary at all. I appreciate the feedback!

[Paul T. Gardner]

Pillar have you tried posting your scenario on the CMHQ? I can't get the scen either. just let CMHQ host it for you...

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PTG