Lacky Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 I'd like to share a little story. A Churchill Crocodile, supporting a concealed infantry advance, comes under fire across a very tight LOS (<15 degrees) from dead ahead. The incoming fire is from a quad 20mm FlaK gun. The ROF and extreme noise was the indicator. The TC wisely buttons up. First minute goes by, the 20mm Quad is whacking away at the behemoth's front armor. Second minute goes by, the 20mm Quad keeps whacking away at the front of the Crocodile. My field commander gets a bit nervous and decides to position infantry in woods to observe where the hell this 20mm AA gun is located. There are only two viable locations this FlaK gun can be hidden! Third minute goes by, the 20mm AA keeps whacking away at the Crocodile's front. The infantry have a clear LOS to the only two patches of woods the AA gun could be in! My Crocodile TC orders area fire into one patch of woods. Fourth Minute goes by, the AA keeps cracking at the Crocodile and exposed infantry (who are trying to close the 400 meter distance to the two patches of woods). The Crocodile blindly fires for an entire minute into one of the woody patches. Fifth minute, witching hour, the 20mm AA finally gets a gun hit on the Crocodile. I'm stoked hot. Five minutes of direct fire, from only two small patches of woods that have been observed for several minutes yielding nothing. My blood is boiling. I unbutton the Crocodile to see if the TC can locate the 20mm. My infantry continue to advance for two more turns, finally getting within 100 meters of both woods, all the while taking direct fire from this ghostly AA gun. The eighth turn (eighth minute) the AA gun is located. My TC has been sitting on top of the Crocodile for several minutes (since the AA gun AI knew the gun damaged crocodile was a non-threat). Veteran TC and Infantry finally locate the 20mm Quad AA gun sitting in a foxhole within the patch of woods my Crocodile's area fire was ordered. AA gun positions appear to be ultra-hard to locate, much harder than AT gun positions. I'm not sure why this is so! Is there a historical reason why High-RoF AA guns are ghosts? If this unit had been an MG-42, or an AT gun, or anything else other than an AA gun, it wouldn't have remained a "sound contact" for EIGHT turns! This isn't my first experience with ghost AA guns. In another battle a 20mm German FlaK gun remained concealed for several turns, even though firing at infantry + armor at less than 200 meters. Sure, bad luck! Sure, War is Hell! However, I think the concealment factor for AA guns (especially German 20mm's) is set way too high or everything else in the game is set way too low. (i.e. I spot MG-42's almost instantly, and they're only on a tripod.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 First off, why didn't you move your Croc after it began taking hits??? On the whole I get the impression Flak/AT guns in woods are spotted way too easily in CM but then examples like yours and others chnages that. I think it is very realistic that they will be hard to pinpoint, just take a walk in a large wooded area for confirmation. I agree with your assessment of MGs, they do seem to be spotted almost immediately, perhaps that's something in need of a tweak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 I really haven't seen this. In a recent game, My opponent bought two quad flaks, and I spotted them as Gun?s from fairly far away, before they'd shot enough to do any real damage to my troops. I did have 2-3 shermans and a couple rifle platoons (all regular) looking at the position, which is a bit more than you had, but generally, I haven't found flak guns hard to spot at all. -John Hough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grobdeutschland Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 I agree w/joe. It's hard to find small units in woods. At night the muzzle flash will give it away but during daylight & in combat this is very hard. MGs ARE too easy to spot, to a point - in building MGs are easier to spot b/c they stand out more & there only so many openings it can be in that offer a good field of fire. But in woods a MG is harder to see...I've attack wooded areas in training w/the army & from 200m I could not see a well placed M60 MG. Also the fire from other small arms coming from the same general direction makes it even harder. Now before everyone starts crying that the noise of these SQD weapons gives them away, you must realize that you & half your men are firing also, while the SQD leader is yelling movement orders to the other half to close/flank/retreat whatever...since most SQD open up ambushes w/their heavy weapons 1st (laws,claymores, & in this case MGs) there is a chance to pinpoint the MG. If anyone who saw it lived, the MG will then be made knew to all & will be at the top of the SQD's ****list. So it's easy to see why the MG's should be very hard to spot, but it also can be easy to spot depending on the conditions. This can be modeled in CM & it may well be, but as of now it does seems a bit off. I STILL FEEL CM IS A GREAT GAME! ------------------ "Far better it is To dare mighty things... Then to take rank with Those poor, timid spirits Who know neither Victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt 1899 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grobdeutschland Posted December 23, 2000 Share Posted December 23, 2000 John, if you place the 20mm at the edge of a tree line it will be easy to spot, however if you put it back far enough that it's LOS is dim blue to it's fields of fire then it will be hard to spot. Works for me, but I have never tested it in a mock setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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