bcochran Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Allow me to preface this note by saying I like, therefore I care about the outcome of, this game. So, please take the following as constructive criticism. First, although I understand your reasoning behind structuring the game so that the AI chooses appropriate targets during the active phase, in reality, this concept doesn't work well at all. For instance, let's say I want to rush assets to a certain location on the map while other of my assets are laying down a suppressing cover fire. I choose the units to lay down the cover in the plan stage only to have them almost immediately target another, often distant, enemy unit. I have been frustrated repeatedly as the game's algorhythms don't match my tactical goals. This also applies to leveling buildings. There are times I'd like to eliminate the possibility of having the enemy use certain buildings as cover. It is difficult to do this with the current targeting systems. I really feel the game would be more appropriate if the targeting decisions were left up to the individual. I have found that later in the rounds, after the armor has been eliminated for instance, I just repeatedly hit the 'GO' button as spending time targeting units is virtually useless. Second, this 'hide' thing from the computer opponent is really frustrating. For example, during a turn the enemy's armor suddenly appears...well, ok, this is acceptable. My turn then ends and the next plan stage begins. I target the tank with my tank--among other moves--and re-enter the action phase. Unfairly, I believe, the enemy tank goes immediately into 'hide' mode (eg, a star emblem appears for allied units). This automatically turns off the targeting from my tank and my units sit there like a knot on a log. A few seconds later, in the same action phase, the 'hide' mode goes off for the enemy unit and BANG, the enemy unit starts pounding the daylights out of my unit. Mind you, this has happened without the enemy unit moving an inch and being in the open (not behind a building or trees or hills, etc). This also happens with infantry units, too. If I target, with a tank, a squad which is located in a building, the squad can go into hiding during the turn which turns off targeting for the tank. The squad can then come out of hiding in the same turn and the tank may or may not retarget that squad--this behavior can easily disrupt my tactical goals. Hiding should only be allowed at the end/beginning of the turn and last for the entire turn. This is supported in real terms: If I am shooting at a unit who decides to drop, crawl and 'hide' in real life, it is reasonable to assume that as the unknowing party, I would continue to fire at that location for a minimum of seconds-minutes before realizing the enemy is no longer there. Spending time targeting units in the plan phase only to have them pop in and out of hiding during a turn is inappropriate. Thanks for your efforts! Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Bill, Both of these things have been discussed at great length already. We have made changes to make human orders "stick" more. As for units changing back to a symbol, this means they have gone out of LOS. There is no "hide mode" being used here. Your unit will try and "remember" there is something there for x seconds, but then it is freed up to look for other targets. As for the computer overriding your targeting orders... it *MUST* happen to some degree. Notice how much situations change in 60 seconds. You would be screaming bloody murder if your guys were plinking away at a target of your choice and ignoring some previously unseen unit charging to do close combat. Sometimes gamers know not what the outcome of their "solutions" will yeild. In this case, I can safely say that very few people would buy CM if the TacAI left all targeting orders up to the human all the time. Yup, it would suck that badly Trust me, I have seen this many moons ago when there was no such thing as the TacAI (wasn't coded yet). It was the most frustrating, and totally unrealistic, experience you could ever conceive of. You can order something like a tank to shoot at a specific area (like a building) using area fire. The TacAI won't screw around with this unless there is a very good reason to. In terms of coordinating your weapons, you have to remember that realistically you already have too much control (even with the TacAI overriding you). Coordination of fire on targets was limited to, at most, a platoon and a few support weapons. However, in CM you can coordinate every weapon at your disposal in theory. So although the TacAI has been tweaked, do not expect robotic behavior since this is exactly the opposite of what CM is all about. Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 11-29-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lokesa Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 I wish I had the latest build... it's hard to make statements and suggestions knowing it's all been changed from what we have. BTS has stated that units are more hesitant to change their fire orders than before. I would like the ability to give designate area's to recieve a higher priority for AI fire selection. Thus if an enemy show's itself they will immediatly recieve suppression fire. A couple ways it could be done, a) to give co's the ability to issue an ambush like bullseye which other units then target. Unit's which have targetted said location will behave normally engaging in other actions until enemy appear at the targetted area at which time the the targetted are enters the AI's fire selection algorithm or list (not sure how to word it) at a higher priority than would normally be assigned. If the target was a unit instead of a location the function would be basically the same except that as the vehicle entered LOS it would become the priority. Funny thing is I think this is how it works already, just without the co's. Allow the player to highlit area's as high priority and medium priority with low priority or no modification to fire selection for the rest of the map. Thus when your units do retarget, they will be more likely to choose a target within their designated zones. OOp's took to long writing it, this was in response to the first message. [This message has been edited by Lokesa (edited 11-29-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 bcochran, I'll just deal with the tank issue.. In Combat Mission many people have noticed AI controlled tanks inching up a hill, shooting a round and reversing back to full defilade only to inch up again and fire again. This would lead to exactly what you are describing seeing. And for your information IF there is a "US star" marker then you cannot tell if the tank has moved or not.. the marker is just a last known location marker. The tank could easily have reversed a couple of metres and then hunted up the hill again. I don't know about you but I have no problems having tanks shell the living s**t out of infantry units which hide in houses. In fact I've demolished a couple of buildings just today in CM in which the enemy units were hidden by targetting those hiding enemy units. lastly, tanks can't hide. They CAN go to full defilade but that's a realistic battlefield tactic and not a bug. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Um, if tanks can't hide, why can you give them hide orders? And what does giving them hide orders do? -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 I believe it is to tell them to not open fire unless absolutely necessary. In effect, if they havnt yet been spotted, not opening fire will help them stay that way. I guess you *could* say they are hiding, but in no way like infantry does Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Kwazydog is right John. Think about it for a second.. An infantryman HIDES by hitting the dirt. How does a 3 metre tall tank hide? Simple, it can't make itself smaller so it merely stops shooting so as not to draw attention to itself. What I mean is.. The only way a tank can HIDE (and get the same effect as infantry) is to get out of LOS.. The HIDE command for tanks is akin to a "don't shoot until you see another tank" order... ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Hough Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Ah, ok, I suspected something like that. And so we have a solution to the problem of tanks targeting infanty when there's an enemy tank just over the ridge... -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDW Posted November 30, 1999 Share Posted November 30, 1999 Fionn, when I put a tank into "hide mode" I have also noticed that the engine sound quiets down considerably. Since the tank is "quiet" that also means that it will be less aurally spottable - correct? Also, how do you actually order a tank to do the: move forward, target, fire, move back, wait, move forward, target, fire...? How does this work when you are issuing the orders to the tank is the "moved back" positions - when it does not have LOS to the target you want to shoot at? I've been wanting to do that move, but I can't figure it out. If the move can be done, can it be done more than once per turn? How would the order sequence go? Also, what if you wanted to go: move forward, fire at target A, move back, move turret to target B, move forward, fire at target B, move back. Are these moves even *possible* in the demo? In the full version? ok enough ???? for one post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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