Thomas Davie Posted October 18, 1999 Share Posted October 18, 1999 Steve or Charles; correct me if I'm wrong, but I had thought that you were going to include an attack scenario in the demo for both the Allies and Germans. Could you please also include one (1) randomly generated scenario as well? Reason being that you have publicly stated that waypoints would not be utilized as a means of 'directing' the AI and I certainly do not think that you would put in designed scenarios that would make the AI look bad, so.... How about it as a means of allowing us to assess the AI via a non constructed scenario? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 LOL.. Tom, if it's a pregenerated scenario then how could you be sure that waypoints haven't been surreptitiously added since it won't be created on your computer but on Steve's or Charles' computer? And FWIW I've just lost another game to the AI which I made up myself.. Lots of hills and 2 King Tigers, 2 Tigers and 2 Jpz IV 75mmL70s vs 2 Jumbos ( 1 x 75, 1 x 76), 7 Sherman 76, 3 Sherman 75, 2 M10,s and 2 M5s. Damned AI managed to hide some units in a fold in a valley and a couple of others in forests to the side of the valley and ambushed my KTs from about 200 metres to the side. Anyways end result one Sherman 75 survived a very close-range conflict with engagement ranges averaging about 200 metres.. He had 1 Sherman 75, 1 Stuart and 3 76s survive the destruction of my Tiger and King Tiger force and advanced them towards the objective which I was defending with my last remaining vehicle, a Jpz IV.. I had it in a great ambush position and it picked off 3 Shermans at under 200 metres range.. manouvred and came out behind the stuart and killed it but as it sneaked up on the Sherman he got a lucky shot into the top decking and blew it apart.. End result I lost.. Given that all my guys were elite I thought that was a really good performance from the AI. This is no circle of death AI . Anyways I doubt you'll see a random scenario and even if you did I doubt that would allay people's fears since waypoints could still be put in somehow I suppose. I guess the best statement here is that as I've used the editor to make scenarios I can categorically state that there is no setting of waypoints at all and there won't be waypoints in the demo. CM simply doesn't use them so what is there to check unless you think people are lying? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted October 19, 1999 Author Share Posted October 19, 1999 Fionn; no, I definately do not think anyone would lie and I certainly do not think that Steve or Charles would. I'd just like to see how the AI functions in a randomly designed game. But, I certainly can't assess what isn't included I guess. Thanks for the info though. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 I get what you're saying Tom a bit more now. You want to asses the AI and were thinking that some "tricks" are used to guide the AI right. I bet you think that if waypoints aren't used then something else must be right? Well, I've had this now for quite a few months and the only ways to "guide" enemy actions are to either tell them to exit the map or give them victory locations to go after.. e.g. a church or a bridge or whatever. One thing you will NOT see is a Steel Pantherish straight dash towards the Victory Locations. It's much smarter than that as you will see in the beta demo. The best way to put it (to give you an idea how it works) is that the AI moves forward probing until contact is achieved and then it sizes up what you have and allocates forces to destroy that position (or simply ignore it if that;s the better option). In other words, as near as I can tell it actually works a lot like a human insofar as it moves to contact, establishes what forces you have available to you and then goes about making a small-scale plan to destroy the particular position it has found. I've had MG units appear on my flank mid-way through a game since the AI presumably wanted to prevent any withdrawals from my current positions. I've seen tanks probing the flanks 3/4s of a map from the nearest victory locations and so on. I've played the various games you are probably thinking about in which the AI simply hits waypoint after waypoint and becomes totally predictable but given the absence of waypoints in CM the AI really does seem to size up your forces and come up with plans to defeat various portions of those forces 1 by 1 ... I hope that makes more sense to you.. You won't be seeing the "waypoint dash" so prevalent in the SP series. ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Tom, the AI playes no no difference in a randomly generated scenario and one created by hand. Reason... the AI has NO clue about the difference. As far as it is concerned (and it isn't ) they are all coming from the same place: thin air. The only value in including a randomly generated scenario is to see how well it is, uhm, randomly generated. The performance of the AI is irrelevant since it always works with what it gets, no matter where it gets it from. Since there are no tricks to put on the map, looking at any scenario (hand created or randomly generated) will tell you the SAME thing about the AI's abilities. Having said that, we are only including two sceanrios. One attack scenario for each side. Steve P.S. The AI is overruning me at the moment and I am not happy about it! Bugger freakin flanked me with a full SS PzGrenadier platoon in my major blind spot. I expect to lose this one... [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 10-18-99).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 LOL. How do you think I felt. I lost 4 bloody Tigers to dinky Shermans.. SS Panzergrenadiers eh? I don't think I have that one.. Gimme ! ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted October 19, 1999 Author Share Posted October 19, 1999 Fionn/Steve; Thanks for the quick reply. Jeez, I didn't even have time to finish my beer No I don't think that any tricks have been used to guide the AI. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I am attempting to differentiate a response (on the AI's part) between a crafted scenario and a randonly generated one. Meaning that; a crafted or constructed scenario will have gone through some human playtesting for balance no? And a randomly generated scenario will not, by definition have gone through any playtesting (or again, by definition, it would not be called random). A crafted scenario will be tweaked, here and there in an effort or attempt to give a better fight. Some forces added, others subtracted....starting locations altered, reinforcement times changed and so forth. And although it is definately not cheating or 'tricking' it is substantially different from what is proffered (sp?) as a randomly genrated game. Again, I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought you would somehow be 'cheating' in the demo. I am NOT implying that in any way, shape or form. But, *I do* perceive a difference between a crafted and a randomly generated scenario. Eh, that's one reason why I sent detailed playtesting reports to Wild Bill for SPWW2. And again, thanks for the reports from both of you re: how the AI is doing. All I'm trying to do is gauge the AI prior to making a purchasing decision since I'm not likely to play anything other than random scenarios most of the time. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Rock Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Does the AI have varying degrees of aggressiveness? For example, in one play might it take a cautious probing approach, and in another push forward rapidly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Yup, I know what you are talking about. But the thing is what you are *really* asking to evaluate is the quality of a randomly generated sceanrio regardless of who plays them (i.e. two humans or AI vs. human), not the AI's ability to deal with it. There is a difference here, and you have a very valid question. As I said, the AI does not respond differently to a scenario that is hand crafted or randomly made. No more so than it responds differently between a horribly made human generated scenario and one done with loving care and expertise. HOWEVER, as you say a hand crafted scenario is likely to be closer to some sort of "ideal" than a computer generated one. The question is "how good are out of the random can vs. a tweaked sceanrio". This is a good question. Obviously not as good as something Wild Bill would brew up for you, but plenty good fun (I haven't played one to completion, but it started out juuuuust fine ). I think they are a step up from a decent human made scenario myself. Your suggestion is a good one. We shall ponder this. I can tell you for sure that a randomly generated map sceanrio will not go out with the Beta Demo. 3 scenarios is to much in our opinion. However, we will think about tossing one in the Final Demo. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Davie Posted October 19, 1999 Author Share Posted October 19, 1999 Thanks Steve. Heck, skip the beta demo if things will get finished that much quicker Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 And have half the people on the board go mad with anger after waiting for it for so long? ------------------ ___________ Fionn Kelly Manager of Historical Research, The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted October 19, 1999 Share Posted October 19, 1999 Yes, the AI has variable options even within a game. It might be going ultra aggressive and then calm down after taking some heavy losses, or vice versa. The AI also sets up its units VERY well, but has some randomness built in to put something in its next-to-top pick instead of top pick to ensure it won't *always* place a certain unit in the same exact spot. Mind you, 2nd best might be just as good. Say it rates some place a 9.5 and another 9.3. To the computer one is better than the other, but really... how much better is it going to be in game terms? Thomas, the AI gives a REALLY good fight at the moment, and there are still tweaks to be done. I have been playing this game since it was a prototype (2 years or so), I know exactly what the AI has in terms of forces, and I STILL have a hard time beating it. Example from a game done yesterday (see new post) Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts