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Blood sprites are just a symbol of immersion that something deadly happened here. Seeing guys just lying on the ground doesnt necessarily imply "something really bad just happened here". Personally I like this type of immersion and yes - i would always notice and appreciate it. Some people like more particle effects, bullets sparking off metal, smoke vapors on freshly fired guns etc...of course they could all be removed but each one adds a different type of immersion component to the scene. Obviously we all have different thresholds over whats appropriate - i guess mines pretty high for military based games as i owned VBS -yes the $600 Military grade training version of Arma -and its violence was pretty graphic including real dismemberment, very bloody headshots and even children in villages. When i saw a terrorist attack one of these villages or a missile blowing up a village -its had an emotional effect on me and made me want vengeance against its perpetrators. Like i said - im an AI nut.

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4 minutes ago, wadepm said:

I am a present day critic.  I think the bodies are more than enough.  

Well like you said -you are one person not a professional game critic. Im talking about societal norms as that is the question you asked. Individually we all have different opinions as the guy next to you might prefer zero bodies or he may prefer shooting balloons instead of bullets as they are too violent or that soldiers disappear into a puff of smoke rather than portraying death.

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24 minutes ago, wadepm said:

I don't think that sentiment applies any less because it's 2020.  Why would it?

Because in the earlier days of video gaming - violence, no matter how minimal was still being hotly debated as "damaging to our youth" thereby leaving many developers in a conundrum of contributing toward the argument. Context, amount or how gratuitious was really not being taken as an excuse  at that time but in our times it very much is. A War Game (tabletop strategy being exempt) is expected to have at least a mild sort of resemblance of violence and a small pool of blood wouldnt raise an eyebrow ANYWHERE. If you know of any such present day critic please direct me to their sites im honestly curious. That is why the sentiment applies less in today -its all about context of the present day society.

 

Did you miss my Lego Game dismemberment and decapitations as an example? these are simply different times

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1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

I apologize that I have not read this whole thread and if someone already mentioned this. 

Way back when the original Combat Mission Beyond Overlord had a public beta demo released, before the first CM game was released, there were no bodies in the game. Battlefront did not want to put anything that might be considered unnecessarily blood thirty in the game. There were a lot of forum discussions about it and Battlefront ended up including bodies because it was important to gameplay. Knowing where soldiers were engaged and lost had a place in the strategy of playing the game. Having them be bloody doesn't add anything to the strategy. That's why it isn't in the game.  

An understandable sentiment for circa 2000 -albeit far too conservative for this day and age. Its almost so brazenly missing as to feel war is too sanitized. Heck my kids lego games have beheadings and dismemberment -im not vouching for tasteless, obsessive death porn -but bloody pools of sprite seems about right. Well at least mods do exist.

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3 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

As you can well imagine, and based on you mod work on experience levels in ARMA, a company of +2, elite, fanatic, fit, excellently equipped, fully supplied, and full headcount SS Volksgrenadiers will be far more difficult to push out of a small village than a -2, conscript, poor, weakened, poorly equipped, scarcely supplied, 50% headcount Volksstrum company.

Sadly this is untrue for Arma -hence exactly why I started my private mod of true AI disparity. In vanilla Arma -a Line Cook is as effective as a Marksman as far as AI is concerned -I have a good 1000+ hours dedicated to only studying AI routines, animations, skillsets and behavours (yes its sad). You could say im kind of an AI nut. The problem is that they (Bohemia Inter) never properly calibrated the AI subSkills so that they are all way too accurate -i needed to take skills like aimingAccuracy down into deep decimal land ie 0.00081 just to gain the proper disparity between say a Private Rifleman and a Seasoned Tac op. In their defense, it is far harder to calibrate these type of things in a real time 1st person shooter especially one as lethal as Arma (1 bullet can kill) as just the slightest delay, slow or improper animation etc means your higher tiered guy's advantages just flew out the window. A strategy game doesnt have these same extremely tight constraints as they arent actually tracking exact location down to the millimeter of every bullet in real time -its more just calculated dice rolls.

 

As far as the Squad parameters like Morale/Vet Level/Fatigue Level/Fanatic - thats all really good stuff. Again though it would be sensational to be able to transfer and adapt these as Dynamic variables from one mission to the next thereby creating a Dynamic campaign - I know I know i get that this isnt likely ever on the table to happen but honestly i cant see it being that difficult to implement should the Devs pursue it.

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5 hours ago, Ultradave said:

Fire and Rubble is not yet released. It's in Beta testing/development. Red Thunder is there which is the base Eastern Front game, and Fire and Rubble will be an add on to that, with more scenarios and campaigns, more unit types.

On the Battlefront web site, on the top right select the Games menu, select Red Thunder off of that, presto - there's the CMRT Base Game. Not sure where you ended up, but that will get you to Red Thunder, if that's your choice. 

Your other question about hilly terrain and city fighting...  Fortress Italy has LOTS of hilly terrain, and there is a slew of content with both the add ons, Gustav Line, and Rome to Victory, which add even more mountainous terrain, snow, more units, more nationalities, lots more scenarios and campaigns. There's a lot of content there. There is some heavy town fighting, but nothing like what will be in Fire and Rubble with fighting in Berlin.  Same path for Fortress Italy, except there you will see a bunch of options for just the base game or bundles with one or both of the DLCs.

Pick one. You'll probably get addicted, and then by the time you've collected them all, you'll have all the kinds of fighting you want.

Advice given to most like yourself who are wondering which to get is to pick the one of the theater that is most interesting to you, and that's what you'll have fun with. Saying that, I wasn't much interested in Italy at first but Fortress Italy and the add ons made me a convert. Interesting terrain, long time span of operations covered, and now with 2 DLCs, loads of content. 

If Normandy is your thing, the full package there has probably the most content per $ spent (might be a tie with Shock Force there if you have everything for both). D-Day, breakout, Market Garden, the addition of Commonwealth forces. Just tons of content. 

They all have a large number of user created content as well, and each has a Quick Battle generator, with unique maps to the title, terrain conditions, pick your forces, plus the scenario editor to create your own based on that particular title/theater. 

Dave

Cool man and good tips. Yeah funny Italy was one that DIDNT jump out at me  -probably just because im just not very knowledgeable on that theatre of WW2 but that terrain does sound right up my alley. Would most likely commit but i am really curious about the Fire and Rubble module for Red Thunder -itll come down to one of these two.

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1 hour ago, Gkenny said:

and was curious about what your AI project is? 

Well let me clarify -i have my own project which enhances disparities between AI skill levels by class; institutes AI camouflages values by things like being surrounded by foliage, being inside, even just being in shadow; adds robust civilian banter as well as features radio voices for all Spec ops/Snipers; plays out specific evasive animations for Spec Ops; allows vehicles to unload on buildings where enemies are merely suspected; AI will shoot RPGs from inside houses and probably abit more ive forgotten as feature creep kicked in years ago. I started this mod because i was creating a mission in an African nation featuring American Tier Operators invading a drug dealing Militia hideout and realized the "high level spec ops" were getting decimated everytime by low skill AK bearing banditos -because Arma fails to properly calibrate skill level in any meaningful way.

 

Now onto "The Project" -let me be clear -i am but a bit player in this mod. 'The Building AI mod' -which i wont name as its still under wraps but let me assure you its a game changer. Ever notice how lame Arma AI are att maneuvering in buildings - always taking some extremely limited, extremely linear pathway that is prebaked into the building model? How the AI always use the exact same slow tac walk pace and often just lie down facing a wall having literally zero understanding of the tactical uses of both windows and doors? How about a mod that completely reinvents their AI maneuvering so that they know exactly where they are going with real purpose? How about an AI that will knowingly use  advantageous interior positions depending on both known enemies as well as perceived possible direction of attack? That can clear these houses as well as defend them without ghosting thru walls anymore or misorienting their aim away from an imminent threat..? That will use their rifle butts to smash window glass to better prepare a shot and know how to "work a window" for firing?

 

I cant say much more but I think you get the picture

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LOL- well ok there it is ^^^^

My mistake

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No offense but this store site is not very well set up -for instance i cant find Fire and Rubble when clicking on the base game Red Thunder game and if i click Upgrades it only offers up a $10.00 to upgrade to to engine 4.0. No mention of Fire and Rubble under the Games tab -what gives? So if i buy Red Thunder is it already at v 4.0?

 

Edit: Also using the Search button nothing comes up for Fire and Rubble or any derivative of that name

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Thanks all I do appreciate all your feedback.  Definitely gonna grab one of these because I do think its cream of the crop for this genre -Graviteam being another really good one when i have a really high level of patience. 

Quickly it does say in the advertisement for Operation Red Thunder:

• Expansive simulation of "soft factors" such as Morale, Experience, and Leadership

I wonder what they mean by "Expansive?

So im guess  all the titles pretty much are up to the same Engine standard and it basically comes down to the preferred them such as WWII East or Western front or else modern day Afghani. I like all war theatres but probably gonna go with the latest which i think is fire and Rubble? Flame throwing sounds nice. I really like combat terrain that in undulating (cliffs, valleys, crevices good areas for over head ambush) as well as of course (my Arma specialty) building fighting (using windows etc) -what recommendations would be the proper title for that?

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36 minutes ago, IanL said:

Here is the summary list: https://www.battlefront.com/cmfb-upgrades/cmfb-upgrade-4/?tab=features

Hull down and solider behaviour (spacing, avoiding HE and peaking around corners) are my favourites but there is a lot there

Great exactly what i was looking for

36 minutes ago, IanL said:

It is not. The game supports re skinning of the UI and the models but it does not support changing the AI behaviour and the properties of armour or weapons.

Ahh a bummer.

36 minutes ago, IanL said:

The campaigns in the game take place over the course of a day or part of a day. At most a few days. In real life soldiers don't get significantly better or promoted that fast.

Yeah i would agree though i think you would also agree that may shortcuts take place in strategy games as to best convey things like experience being condensed into game time from real world time.  Obviously soldiers dont "level up" in RL on the spot but one could surmise that they do Veteran up from mission to mission though from what your telling me there is no way to create a chained mission scenario into a Campaign which is a tragedy for a game like this.

 

I have yet to fully finish a Combat mission - i tend to watch little details and then restart it to monitor different reactions -type guy. I would say at the very least they could put a Medals screen in place at missions end, as surely you would agree outstanding soldiers are given metal merit even after a partial day encounter. Obviously they are not given it in one day due to real world politics but i dont think anyone is that much of a stickler.

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5 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

There are mods that turn the casualty base into a puddle of blood like below:

 

There is also the wounded mod which shows some bloody bandages.

 

Ahhh very nice (no sicko) - thank you

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13 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

TP ... if you have played the demos and can't hit the buy button, I wonder if the game is really for you? The demos are a good intro into the game play. Yes, it's an upper tier game pricewise. But you get what you pay for. BTW, BF committed to being as apolicial with as little gore as possible right for the start 20 years ago. However, if you read the forums, you will all of that anyway. 

 

 What do you mean "not for me"? The combat/strategy aspect is fantastic yet other polishes would really enhance it like more radio comms, speech fom HQ thru chain of comand, and the possibility to chain missions together into a cohesive campaign with troops that survive and can be promoted etc... Since i am in Demo -I have no clue whether the "REAL GAME" has those types of features - hence why i am here asking. You've probably been on this forums a while but to the outsider rounding up a clear overall picture is pretty tough here - i have seen no mention of anything bout being apolitical or not wanting to offend anyone via gore -is there an area of Stickys Im missing?

Again im a lifelong Operation Flashpoint to now Arma 3 modder and my team is on the cusp of a major AI pathfinding (building fighting) release. This game looks to have a realy really nice RTS military foundation but feels abit empty in the personality dept. Arma is also a sandbox and alls we do is create our own scenarios in the editor but the editor is extremely robust and your relly only limited by your ability to code SQF and your imagination.

 

This series seems to have flourished for some time im just wondering if the Devs ever try and "branch out" in terms of production values or giving modders the tools to do so

 

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 Greetings, long time lurker and Demo tryer. This game intrigues me yet i can never commit to the Buy button as its pretty pricey relatively speaking. What is the difference between Engine 3 (the Demo im on) and Engine 4 -think i saw it was snappier AI responses?

- Why is there no blood? Im not a gore nut but a certain level of violence is needed to convey warfare. Are there mods that remedy this?

- How moddable is the game outside of maps and models. Im a longtime Arma AI modder - and one thing i like to do is add experience to successful troops. It makes the AI far more interesting when they "rank up" and become better skilled soldiers through their actions -making you bond to them and hoping for their success. Is this type of thing doable in this modding system? What language is the mod tools using?

 

Thanks! I do enjoy the demo i feel like a little more polish for missions and things like troops that rank up and carry over from mission to mission would really step it up to the next level