Terkin
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Posts posted by Terkin
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Russians have been spoon fed a lot of inaccurate information, as have others.
There are a lot of myths that are still alive about WW2 amongst the "average" Russians: every German tank was a Tiger; every German soldier was a SMGer; NKVD blocking detachments shot everyone on sight; those that were captured and then managed to escape headed right to GULAG; Prokhorovka was a glorious win for the Soviets; and yes, the Allies waited until '44 to mount an attack (no Africa or Italy campaigns).
But I'm speaking about the average Joe who knows history from a few movies he watched. If a guy is interested in history (or at least in this part of history), usually he doesn't repeat these claims. And if he does, then a heated discussion starts with me as his opponent.
On a side note, I do have a feeling that Allies waited for too long to strike the Germans - if they actually mounted an attack in September 1939, that could have changed a lot of things - for better. Or am I greatly mistaking in this and there was absolutely no capability to invade Germany early in the war (in the first two months of it)?
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He has a Panzerschrek or two (somewhere lying in the ambush)
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Whole books have been written about the lies and distortions of truth Heer Officers ran with after the war. Conveniently absolving themselves of any intimate knowledge of Hitler's plans, despite the Einsatzgruppen being heavily composed of Army volunteers.
I'd like to add that there's no need in mentioning Einsatzgruppen, as Heer started massacring POWs already in 1939 in Poland, following to do so with Soviet POWs and civilians.
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Vinnart,
But when will Bil's CAS arrive, and whom will it attack? Will Elvis's flak drive away or down the Assault Aviation aircraft? Stay tuned!
Regards,
John Kettler
OK, it was long ago when I played CMBB, BUT!
I think we won't see murderous effects of Bil's IL-2 during this AAR. He (or Elvis) already stated they've heard plane buzzing overhead, but it didn't fire. It was quite a few turns ago. I think it just didn't spot anyone at all and just left - correct me please if I'm mistaking, but that wasn't a rare sight in CMBB?
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here's the same documentary in Russian, you can hear how the operation is pronounced:
http://youtu.be/ppCUHPgugiE?t=5m21s
(it should open at 5:21)
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As a slight off-topic I would like to suggest you guys to watch this short (<1 hour) documentary made by Russian studio several years ago. it uses documentary footage, reenactors and CGI.
It was translated to English. I found all the series interesting, but here's an episode that specifically addresses Operation Bagration.
Maybe some of you will find anything new (at least, I know Chris will, when he hears "Bagration" pronounced correctly.
)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6UkVl3ZFuI
ps
I hope it's not against the rules to post links to videos from youtube in this section? if it is, please excuse me and just delete the thread.
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Actually, can of worms closed. I was reminded that the ISU-122 and ISU-152 don't have coax or hull MGs. The SMGs, and their ammo, were most likely for local defense. A lesson learned from the Ferdinand and various other German Assault Guns. While technically they could share ammo with the tank riders, it is doubtful they would have given away very much because they probably were instructed to keep it for themselves.
So move along... nothing to see here
Steve
Hahah, that made me laugh.
Late versions of ISU-152 did have DShK mounted on them, but this information could be useful for you guys when you will be making Push to Berlin module.
EDIT
Ah, you're right! I had thought the frontal armor was just 75mm at 60 but that turned out to be the earlier SU-152 (also in the game).But isn't the battle compartment front armour ~90mm at 30 degrees? That's a small slope, shouldn't 75mm be able to penetrate that at such distance?
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As a side note, I find the very question of this thread as absurd.
Are there actual verified figures? When I was researching the 1930s "Purges" a few year's back, all I could find were estimates, since it seemed most official records had serious gaps. Best estimate I saw were around 1,000,000 who were "Purged", 500,000 who were executed and another 500,000 sent to prison.In Russian,
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If I understand, your SPGs and a Panther would be something like in 600-800 meters from ISU-122, had you decided to attack them?
I think they could take it out from that distance head on, although the distance is quite big, so it could take 2-4 shots to achieve a direct hit. Don't forget to get out of harm's way after few shots, as fast as you can, even if they didn't score a hit - if that thing hits you or even near you, things won't be too great for your panzers.
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You might think the ISU-122 is a good mobile ammo point, but what you see there is specifically intended for and assigned to provide local defense for the AFV when laagered at night or otherwise exposed to infantry attack.
Further, that ammo is also used for munitioning dismounted reconnaissance, as seen in HSU Loza's Fighting For The Soviet Motherland, where he and his driver disembark from the Lend Lease Matilda he commands to go forward and check out a suspicious cabin. He takes the PPSh-41, additional ammo and F-1 grenades, and is assisted by the driver, who's armed with the dismounted coax MG.
Thank you, John, for your answer and welcome
Yes, I know that they were meant for "self-defense", but to be honest, 21 disc is too much for it, in my opinion. For you see, as you correctly state, there were 5 men in a crew, but not everyone had an SMG on them - there would be only 2 SMGS (of course, that was standard; but it could be varied on the ground, after all, I remember reading that ISU-152 crews even had a trophy MG-42 with them). So, one drum in each PPSh, and two more for them - that makes 6 drums, which leaves 15 drums in the fighting compartment.
If things went south, the crew could use all of that ammo for themselves, of course, but I find it hard to imagine such situation (two men firing all of those 1400 rounds - scene looks like a copy of defense from a zerg rush to me
).The tankodesantniki have what they have on their persons, and that's it. To date, I've read nothing to contradict this view. Moreover, even during the Cold War, a Russian Motorized Rifle infantryman would've gone into battle with one 30 round mag in his AK-47s and three more in his canvas carrier. That's it, and this is straight out of the Defense Intelligence Agency publication The Soviet Motorized Rifle Company (U).I don't know much on Cold war topic, but wasn't there additional ammo in each of BMP for them? At least in CMSF there was.
On topic of tank riders, I will have to re-read Bessonov's account, maybe he mentions anything of these sorts in his book.
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Sorry, but no, they are not.
These were PPSh magazines, as it is written on the pic in Russian: "magazines for PPSh submachine gun".
A quote from Wiki:
The crew were given two PPSh submachine guns with 1491 rounds and 20 F-1 grenades for short range self-defence.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU-152#Design
Also, this pic is showing interior of ISU-152, that didn't have DP or DT machinegun. later model had DShK mounted outside.
A quote from here: http://armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/WWII/isu152/1/
С октября 1944 г. на вращающемся погоне основания командирского люка стала устанавливаться зенитная турель с 12.7-мм пулеметом ДШК и коллиматорным прицелом К8-Т. Боекомплект к пулемету составлял 250 патронов. Кроме того, в боевом отделении укладывались два 7.62-мм пистолета-пулемета ППШ (ППС) с боекомплектом 1491 патрон (21 диск) и 20 ручных гранат Ф-1.Starting from October 1944 they started mounting AA turrets with 12.7mm DShk with collimator scope K8-T on top of commander's cupolas. It had ammo of 250. Moreover, there were two 7.62mm smgs PPSh (PPS) with ammo of 1491 bullets (21 disc) and 20 F-1 hand-grenades in the fighting compartment. -
One minor advantage Elvis has involves those Russian PPSh, ironically enough. If he can keep from getting killed for any length of time those tank riders are liable to rapidly exhaust their ammo supply. And there's no submachinegun ammo to acquire back at the tank. I may be grossly misinterpreting tank riders but they seem to be one trick ponies. Hop off the tank and wipe out all the suppressed enemy troops at close range. If the enemy isn't wiped out, or isn't suppressed, or isn't at close range the tank riders are basically caught with their pants down.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with newer WW2 games of CM series (last game I've played was CMSF).
Do tanks or SPG in game normally have additional ammo for small arms like IFVs in CMSF? Or can one find additional ammunition only with ammo dumps?
I'm asking this because if I understand it correctly, at least ISU-122 and ISU-152 had 21 disc for PPSh and F-1 grenades on board.
Note number 10 on this pic - that is what I'm talking about. this could be some help for tank riders, because I remember how fast SMG teams burnt through their ammo back in CMBB days
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That is why I am looking for (or hoping someone is thinking of modding) the actual icons used by the Soviets in WWII. I did some searching but have not yet been successful.
Here you go: a list of tactical signs used by the Soviets in WW2 (at least in part of it, as this book dates to 1942). It's in Russian, but I think I could try translating it, if anyone needs it? 9it will take some time though).
http://www.maps4u.lt/lt/includes/siuntiniai/Z/Taktiniai_zenklai/Taktiiniai_simboliai_1942.pdf
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Brown = Commonwealth
Green = American
Grey/Blue = German
Red = Soviet
I though have never seen what symbols the Soviet military used to represent their units on maps. Did they use the standard Western allied symbols or have a unique set like the Germans did?
Soviets were using red to mark their own forces and blue for enemy.
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I would like to add two of my favourite books on WW2: "Tankrider" by Bessonov and "Penalty Strike" by Pylcyn.
"Tankrider" is a memoir written by a Soviet lieutenant who fought from August '43 till May '45. He and his men were tank riders (tankodesantniki), who in small teams together with T-34 and later IS-2 tanks had to lead the way for the bigger forces that were exploiting the gap after the front was broken. He tells an honest story, mentioning both combat action and more quiet life when his men were given a moment to rest.
personally for me it was also interesting to read about their tactics - they had a platoon of tanks (I'm speaking from my memory, it was few years ago when I read this book last time) with tank riders and they had to fight the blocking elements of retreating Germans and pursue them, not giving a chance to regroup and rebuild the defenses. Being always at the spearhead, he was one of the first Soviet soldiers who entered Lvov in '44
A story of a brave soldier who fought for almost two years leading the way.
"Penalty Strike" is a memoir written by Penal Battalion commanding officer (I think he was a company leader). He wasn't sentenced but assigned to it (it was a a dangerous role so he had his own bonuses - bigger paycheck etc). Under his command were former officers who committed some crime - be it a cowardice act, looting, drinking or something else. They were striped from their rank and sentenced for up to three months to penal battalion. If they were wounded, or made out alive for the whole sentence term, or made some heroic act, they were pardoned, recieving their rank and medals back.
Pylcyn also participated in liberation of Byelorussia, if I remember correctly, and greeted the end of war in Czech republic, where in Spring '45 he was shot to the head by a German sniper but survived.
This book will be also interesting for those who would like to know how was it fighting in Penal battalion from the first hands instead of using old refurbished cliches.
Pylcyn goes in detail about the weapons (Soviet and German as well) and tactics they've used, what were their relationship with higher command and his own soldiers (after all, some were higher in rank before they got to that battalion, so it was not the same as commanding usual privates).
On a sidenote, speaking of Jason Mark's literature - are there any chance to buy it anywhere in e-version? my library is big as it is, so I'm trying to save space (and trees
) by reading from Kindle.
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Vilnius Circa 13 July 1944
in Combat Mission Red Thunder
Posted
Regarding Germans, you can try reading these threads: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=105600&start=0
http://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=6370
Battlegroup Tolsdorf most likely consisted from 1067th Grenadier regiment, who were reinforced with elements of 16th Fallschirmjager regiment. Some of them were airlifted to airport in the South of the city, others were airdropped several days later (these were the ones who reinforced Tolsdorf).
Regarding Soviet side:
Vilnius was taken by forces of 3rd Byelorussian front. The battle for Vilnius itself was fought by 5th Army, 5th Guards tank army, 3rd Mechanized Corps
Soviet forces:
277th, 215th, 144th, 371st, 97th, 184th Infantry divisions
153rd, 35th, 25th, 31rd, 32nd, 3rd, 18th, 19th Tank brigades
954th, 1510th, 1823rd, 1446th, 1436th, 1496th SPG regiments
3rd Breakthrough artillery division
7th, 8th, 9th Mechanized brigades
53rd, 2nd Motorized infantry divisions
4th Assault engineer brigade (ШИСБр)
1223rd Light SPG regiment
376th Heavy SPG regiment
Part of 2nd tank brigade