whitehot78
-
Posts
147 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by whitehot78
-
-
The point of all this is when you ratchet up tensions and then engage in aggressive behavior human potential for error kicks in and really bad s**t happens.
KAL flight 007
Iranian air flight 655
MH 17
All these were avoidable but the parties involved allowed their aggressiveness to overcome common sense in the heat of the moment. The result is a lot of dead civilians who should all now be very much alive. This is the game that Russia is playing around with and when eventually someone pays the price of this stupidity we can all look at it afterwards and say how stupidly senseless it was. Better to just stop it now so no innocent civilians have to pay the price.
I totally agree with you.
Then we should ask ourselves, "what event, or events has started the rise in tension"?
Is Russia really the only responsible for the rise in tension?
(sorry for the double post, sburke post appeared while I was typing the previous one)
-
Whitehot78: For what concerns the matter of the interceptions over the baltic and elsewhere, seems to me that we have cleared that the ATC controllers were perfectly able to pinpoint the location of the russian af planes on their screens, and therefore, to steer them away from them, or to alert their crews of their presence; while it seemed to me that there was a general tendency to believe that the russians were aggressively, and somehow "stealthily" maneuver to endanger the safety of civilian airliners.
Objectively the information and sources provided in this thread not at all suffice to make the statement you posted. At best, we can say that we dont know what exactely happened and how it affected the saftey of civillian air traffic.
And please dont reply with some more baseless speculation, provide sources.
It has, since what has been cleared is that the transponder does not broadcast its carrier location and therefore is not needed to pin-point it.
quote from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aeronautics)
A transponder (short-for transmitter-responder[1] and sometimes abbreviated to XPDR,[2] XPNDR,[3] TPDR[4] or TP[5]) is an electronic device that produces a response when it receives a radio-frequency interrogation. Aircraft have transponders to assist in identifying them on air traffic control radar.
Is the word "identifying" synonymous to "locating" to you?
anyway, another link
http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Transponder
If it is irrelevant whether or not the transponder is on or off, why are planes equipped with one? If there was no benefit in using transponders, be it a saftey benefit or something else, there would be no rational reason to keep using them and putting them into aircraft would be a waste of money.
I did not state there is not a safety benefit in carrying transponders - in fact airliners are required to carry and use them. What you are failing to understand for some reason, is that military airplanes are not required by any international law to employ them. If it that was the case, Iran, Syria, Lebanon and other countries would be filing complaints to the United Nations because American or Israeli airplanes or drones flew inside their airspaces with transponders off. Or, you believe that American recon planes should be broadcasting out to Iranian ATC when they overfly Iran? Maybe they could even radio in the ATC : "This is Raven-1, we are about to transition your airspace and need a squawk code - requesting the one for covert aerial recon, if it's not already taken".
I also already stated that russian military planes don't carry transponders, not the kind which is described in the press - they carry an IFF transponder which is, obviously, not compatible with western civilians ones. Did russian aircraft begin to fly in international airspace in 2014? no, they always have, and they have been intercepted as back as 2007, when long range patrols have been re-instated. But, general press reports the information only during the UKR crisis. You can safely assume that russian military planes appear, to russian ATC controllers, the exact same ways as they appear to western ones on their screens.
The whole point is that medias are collaborating in feeding public opinions alarmistic and terror spreading news which, one may surmise, are made to justify more hard-line actions by western governments. Since it's strictly imho, I don't expect nor desire you to adopt my point of view in this issue - yet you are not willing to accept for a moment that the way a certain technology is described is false.
One may also add that, if per absurdum, the russian aircraft would have transponders on on their planes, the atc controllers would get a digit on their radar blips, identifying that blip as a russian air force plane.
You can safely assume that the russian ATC civilian controllers see russian af planes same way as the western ones, on their radar screens.
the Russian ambassador to Denmark Mikhail Vanin said the following in an interview in the newspaper Jyllands-Posten:
“I do not think that the Danes fully understand the consequences if Denmark joins the US-led missile defence shield. If that happens, Danish warships become targets for Russian nuclear missiles. Denmark would be part of the threat against Russia. It would be less peaceful and relations with Russia will suffer. It is, of course, your own decision - I just want to remind you that your finances and security will suffer. At the same time Russia has missiles that certainly can penetrate the future global missile defence system.”
The Russian ambassador explicitly said that Russia will use nuclear weapon against Danish ships that are part of NATOS missile defense. He did not say under which circumstances Russia would do that. What else is this if this if not a threat?
He hasn't said what you state explicitly at all, if you have read your own quote. He said that danish ships would "become targets". Do I have to find links that show how american, british and french nuclear missiles are trained on russian objectives; and russian ones on western ones. Do you accept that nuclear capable missiles have their targets pre-programmed into them?
The statement means that, danish ships employed inside the US-led anti-ballistic device, will be targeted by penetration capable, nuclear missiles (presumably, Iskander-M SRBM).
Which does not mean "we will strike the danish ships without notice, when we see it fit", just that some missiles will be programmed to hit them if the need to dismantle the anti-ballistic device arises - ie, in case of a nuclear war.
Frankly, again what I'm seeing is that people ignoring the technologies and the doctrines being discussed, are easily mis-informed by the same alarmistic press I was talking before, and that goes both for the issue of the transponders and the "threats to Denmark" one.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/10/31/uk-nato-portugal-russia-idUKKBN0IK1TD20141031
"Portugal scrambled F-16 jet fighters for the second time this week on Friday to intercept Russian bombers in the international air space along its coast in a new sign of an unusual burst of Russian activity next to NATO's southern borders."
Since in this case Portugal is the intercepting party, I see no connection with the issue discussed in previous posts, where Portugal was the intercepted party.
The article you posted talks about the Atlantic ocean. How does that pertain to Portuguese planes being intercepted by russian fighters over Baltic?
-
Now we are just dancing around the issue. The article was specifically cited to prove the US flies without transponders in response to multiple points about aggressive irresponsible behavior by the Russian military. The article in fact does not state that, it siimply says the MOD says that and it provides a counterpoint from an impartial body refuting that at least in part.
So now who is misreading or misdirecting the conversation?
no sir, I posted the link to prove that american airplanes get intercepted too in the same airspace. As you may have noticed, I put a lol smiley near the sentence stating that the transponder on the US plane was off, it was in fact to underline that the matter (transponders) is rather silly and irrelevant but - some people here have to keep that issue of vital importance, because it gives "mass" to their arguments against Russia.
@Panzer - You talk about literacy, yet seem to keep citing the "Nuclear threats against Denmark", and I wonder if you need to read the statement from the russian MoD in regard again:
The article which has been posted in this same thread about the issue, reports that IF Denmark will participate into the ballistic missile shield, then, in the case of nuclear war, Russia will target the assets that Denmark has deployed to that international device.
Now since the "nuclear threats to Denmark" seem to be the forte argument to people who are suggesting that the west need to put Russia down, I don't expect you to drop it with any ease - yet I suggest folks to read the declaration I cited and decide by themselves if it is a nuclear threat. Denmark (and it is stated yet in the same article) has responded that it is not by any chance worried about that.
"Portugal around the corner from Russia?" - Does in your opinion Russia send fighters to intercept portuguese planes flying over the atlantic, or is it more likely that Portuguese planes get intercepted over the baltic because they are deployed at NATO bases which are in-theater?
Ofc, I don't expect Russia to be particularly honest about these kind of things, yet I still remember Colin Powell trying to explain to the UN how the Hussein regime was manufacturing chemical and biological weapons on mobile laboratories (Just to cite one example) . So I don't expect the other party to be any more honest than Russia. Yet, since I don't have an agenda in enforcing one country or the other policies, nor I have the need to come out at particular countries which I just can't stand, I try just to point out some facts which seem discrepancies to me. My home village is actually a big western city, abt 1million inhabitants, so I don't consider myself a redneck in any case.
-
Would you care to idenfify the nuclear payloads carried by recon planes, or the P-3? The P-3 is especially hilarious considering they're largely flying in that area so they can be aware of Russian submarine activity as they pass into Norwegian waters.
P-3 Orions may be employed in several different missions - both ASW and maritime surveillance. ESM equipment carried by them effectively makes them SIGINT capable.
Also there have been cases of USAF RC-135U being intercepted:
http://theaviationist.com/2015/04/13/su-27-aggressively-intercept-rc135/
As you can read in the article, the american spyplane was flying with its transponder off.
As for nuclear payloads, the Tupolev-95 is nuclear capable, but also in some version it carries the same kind of equipment the P-3 Orion carries, and in those versions is employed pretty much the same way as the Orion, ASW and maritime surveillance. Ofc the press reports are kinda sketchy about which kind of "Bears" were intercepted, although one may surmise that in the various cases, different kind of planes may have been interested (I didn't read anything about which unit they were from, but again, I wouldn't entrust the general press to single out the difference between, say, a Bear-H and a Bear-F).
Moreover, I would find it very unlikely that the airplanes spotted in the baltic sea were actually carrying any nuclear payload, but being this imho, I understand it's difficult to accept.
This is a stark contrast to nuclear bombers some hundreds, if not thousands of miles away from Russian airspace flying through some of the busiest commercial airspace with transponders off. You can take issue with US/NATO recon assets bopping a little closer to Russia than you'd like, but that's different from Russian threats, and indeed plans to employ nuclear weapons against the west, and then waving said weapons systems around.
The baltic sea isn't thousands of mile away from russian airspace - in fact Kaliningrad is a port city on that sea, without citing St. Petersburg.
It's perfectly reasonable that you could see my car as it darted across six lanes of traffic so it is in no way reckless. So please stop complaining about my driving.
Yeah, metaphors always are tempting, yet this one is pretty much apples and pears.
-
Wow, what a lot of FUD and miss information or at least FUD and miss communication.
I live in Canada. During the cold war the Soviet air force used to test the US and Canadian air defence partnership with frequent flights were close to our air space. Similar flights were conducted near other counties air space. Once the cold war ended so did those provocative flights.
Putin started them again.
That is what we are talking about. All this justification over radar and transponders and misinformed reporters and baffle gab is just a distribution.
Putin's government has brought back an old provocation from a conflict that we thought was passed. He chose to do that. The only conclusion is that Putin's government is seeking additional conflict or at least trying to bully other counties.
That is obvious and clear. Just because some reporter screwed up the details and some people here used incorrect terminology or you misunderstood understood what they were talking about does not change that.
Quite frankly this is a common strategy when someone has no legitimate point on which to stand. Distract the other side with issues of details either real or made up in an attempt to avoid the basic issues.
Putin's government has been conducting deliberate provocative flights for the purpose of intimidation. Are you actually attempting to deny that? Do you feel it is some how justifiable? Let us stop being distracted by pointlessness.
Edited to remove odd phone auto correction involving piglets of all things ???
You are correct. Russia has reinstated patrols by the long range aviation in 2007.
General press is reporting intercepts just since the Ukraine crisis, while specialized press has always reported them since 2007 - at least in cases where the military shared the informations.
This also answers the question of a previous poster, who asked if this kind of situations started to happened only during the UKR crisis or were already in effect, and in this last case, if media were reporting the intercepts by the NATO (or non-aligned) fighters.
Also, there has been intercepts of american sigint/elint planes, in these years, by both russian and chinese air forces: one of them ending with a chinese fighter slamming into an american recon plane (hainan island incident).
Norwegian P-3 patrol airplanes have often been intercepted flying inside, or just outside russian airspace - one case in 2012.
Also P-3s from other nations have been intercepted by Flankers, the one coming to my mind right now being a portuguese one over the baltic.
You are stating this is a strategy to disinform people, in fact I have no desire to condone Putin's actions. What baffles and seems unfair to me is that the public gets fed alarmistic news by a general press which is normally, in the best case, ignorant.
I'm pretty sure that many folks on this forums, which are informed and versed on a particular subject, have had to read some article or hear some report from the general press on that subject that was full of inaccuracies, or even lies.
For what concerns the matter of the interceptions over the baltic and elsewhere, seems to me that we have cleared that the ATC controllers were perfectly able to pinpoint the location of the russian af planes on their screens, and therefore, to steer them away from them, or to alert their crews of their presence; while it seemed to me that there was a general tendency to believe that the russians were aggressively, and somehow "stealthily" maneuver to endanger the safety of civilian airliners.
-
SSR requires transponder on. The workings are explained in the video. Google has plenty more, like http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-primary-and-secondary-radar.
so, if the vid is accurate I think that earlier posts created a little confusion on the definition of primary and secondary radars.
The system described in the video you posted, is the complete system, Primary and secondary.
The primary system is a 3d radar which gets the target parameters, all of them.
The secondary one, is THE system which listens to transponder codes, and actually would defy the definition of radar - it's not a transmitter/receiver that indipendently locates objects, but just an antenna interrogating the transponders on the aircraft.
This would be more of an indication that you can't have airspace scanned ONLY by secondary radar.
The result on operators screens doesn't change - They get the blips with the contacts both collaborative and uncollaborative (xpdr on or off).
Anyway, the wiki link about transponders :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transponder_(aeronautics)
please note, that in no case said system does broadcast the aircrafts coordinates in space, hence negating the need to use what we have called a "primary radar" so far. It can broadcast the target altitude, but again, having the need of a primary radar following the flight, that parameter is already extrapolated by the radar returns, which makes the altitude broadcast from the transponder redundant.
-
I asked a professional pilot i personally know today and he told me that secondary radar does not detect aircraft if they have their transponder turned off. Furthermore he told me that there is an international agency, the ICAO, that standardises aviation procedures. Russia is a member state of the ICAO and a such is obligated to follow ICAO regulations. According to ICAO regulations, all aircraft of all memberstates must obey to specific rules. All aircraft, civillian and military, that fly in controlled airspace must have their transponders turned or, if they dont have any, at least be in radio contact with ATC controllers on the ground. Above international waters air traffic is generally free, but aircraft that use or cross airways are still obligated to have their transponders (if they have any) turned on and to make contact with ATC (if available). Military exercises during which aircraft fly with their transponders turned off an without beeing in contact with the ATC are held in restricted airspace
Russia is a member of ICAO but those rules are applied only to civilians airplanes. Military aircraft are not by any mean obliged to follow ICAO regulations, they may choose to cooperate with civilians controllers or they may not with no violation of international law.
"Above international waters.." are you kidding? and where it would be international airspace located, over national lands? Do you (or your pilot acquaintance) understand that the airspace over the land of a given country is considered national and as such, if russian military airplanes entered say, the polish one, it would be an act of war?
Is it clear that the news reported events about the russian warplanes talked about international airspace therefore, above international waters, or there is people out there believing that russian air force planes conduct patrolling and training inside national airspaces of foreign countries ?
Same goes for the secondary radar matter - either the pilot you know lied to you, or was misinformed - VFR pilots may even not be required to be informed about IFR flight rules, which apply to the whole "transponder fuss" thing, and I still haven't found a single document which states that secondary radar is unable to locate an aircraft without transponder (which is rather obvious, if you want to keep things logic: a radar is made to indipendently locate objects, otherwise, it's not even called a radar). And - the area in question, basically the baltic sea, is anyway covered by primary surveillance radars, which makes the usage of secondary ones useless (I believe that these days they are anyway kept off the air, or on standby mode)
-
So why do you think that the press only just now reporting this, because of the Ukraine situation?
It is in fact my point - either somebody trying to sell a few more copies by the usual terror tactics, or something even more disturbing
Or using logic and what NATO has been saying, the Russians have stepped up patrols and probes of international airspace with military aircraft recently to project power and try and make a point, that's why its reported on, it is happening far more often and there have been many close calls. I don't need to entertain you with articles or evidence because its only a Google away.
International airspace doesn't need to be "probed" by definition - probes were what both US and Soviet aircraft made during the cold war in places like the Bering strait, or the borders between NATO and WarPac countries. If the Russians have stepped up patrols in international airspace, they aren't violating any international law - NATO countries actually patrols international airspace. Unless NATO has obtained some kind of United Nations mandate, by which the international air space is a big no-fly zone for Russian military aircraft, then something is amiss.
It takes no genius to see a pattern by which, as the relations between Russia and the West worsened, this kind of reports on news became very frequent.
Since I have a profound disrespect for press which actively operates to increase the amount of fear and anxiety in public opinions, out of their own personal greed to increase their sellings, or out of something else more subtle which would be like playing the same tune all-over to the advantage of some interested political entity, I believe that something should be clarified, to people absolutely ignoring historical facts, naming and operating procedures, and technology.
btw, as Augusto reported, notice how the german wikipedia page says that secondary surveillance radars NEED to have transponder replies to be able to pin-point the location of observed targets, which is something that for people knowing the involved technologies, is a completely wrong information.
And, I'm not worried abt a conspiracy against Russia, but abt one against western public opinions which have to get distorted facts and embellished news by intellectually corrupt press (I'm not saying all the press is like this), and be terrorized into thinking that Russia is preying on their childrens.
-
i dont think its worrying at all. he swore oaths and betrayed his nation. i dont think hes a traitor because obama said so i think he.s a traitor because he fits my definition of one. and trust me you can find many more worrying aspects about american society than opinion on snowden.
its not that americans believe snowdens info is made up its the whole giving it to foreign nations who routinely end up as opponents of the US to some degree or the other.
So, you are asserting that:
-Snowden is a traitor
-The information he gave up (not only to foreign countries but to international press) is valid.
If the information is valid, which is admittedly true, it actually puts up serious difficulties in affirming that the United States (and probably most other western countries) are in a state of law and not in a police state - or at least, something in-between, which is not a state of law anyway.
The fact that Snowden is perceived as a traitor does nothing to negate the above. As an american citizen, should I be more worried to live under a state which is not ruled by law, or that the person who uncovered that fact is prosecuted? Because if, in your opinion, the second option is more important, then it is really time to be worried.
-
That is not correct. There are two different types of civillian radar: primary radar and secondary radar. Primary radar operates the classic way, with a an eletromagnetic wave beeing sent out from the radar, reflected from the aircraft and then received again by the radar. Secondary radar instead is passive and only works with actively emitting targets, i.e. aircraft that have their transponders turned on. If an aircraft turn off it' s transponder, it will be invisible to secondary radar. At airports and similar installation both radar types are usually used in conjunction, but there is not necessarily a civillian country-wide primary radar coverage. Technically it' s entirely possible to avoid beeing located by ATC by turning the transponder off.
Source:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prim%C3%A4rradar
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekund%C3%A4rradar
You are not seeing this right.
You fail to understand what the links you posted mean, especially the "secondary radar" one.
Wikipedia states that :
Secondary surveillance radar (SSR)[1] is a radar system used in air traffic control (ATC), that not only detects and measures the position of aircraft i.e. range and bearing, but also requests additional information from the aircraft itself such as its identity and altitude. Unlike primary radar systems that measure only the range and bearing of targets by detecting reflected radio signals, SSR relies on targets equipped with a radar transponder, that replies to each interrogation signal by transmitting a response containing encoded data. SSR is based on the military identification friend or foe (IFF) technology originally developed during World War II, therefore the two systems are still compatible. Monopulse secondary surveillance radar (MSSR), Mode S, TCAS andADS-B are similar modern methods of secondary surveillance.
So as you may have noticed, even secondary radar (which, by definition, is used as a backup of a primary one) is able to locate a target by range and bearing - that gives the operator a point on his screen, clearly showing the position of the aircraft. This, without any usage of the transponder.The article describes how the system relies on transponder interrogation to extrapolate the target's identification (the 4 digit code I talked about previously), and altitude.Keeping in mind that no civilian airspace is covered ONLY by SSR, at least in the developed world, even in the case of malfunction of ALL the primary radars in a given zone (many of them also overlap, which means that if one is down, another one can get the information), the SSR is able to have precise coordinates of a given flight.Also, in the case of a russian military aircraft, the SSR would have the precise coordinates of said airplane, only lacking altitude data and identification.But yet again, SSR only would be a theoretical scenario - The real scenario, that is primary radars covering airspaces, would also get the altitude data on the russian aircraft, only lacking the identification digit - which is in all purposes - useless information.Whether or not the russian airplanes flying in international airspace with their transponders off can be considered an act of agressions also depends on whether or not the russians did such things in the past. Even if it' s internationally usual for military aircraft to operate outside of their countries airspace with their transponders turned off, it could still be viewed as an act of agression if Russia had not done such flights in the past but then changed its behaviour.
Russian military airplanes, like Americans, British, German or Chinese, have ALWAYS been flying in international airspace without any transponder usage, the difference between the past and now is that this behaviour is reported by the press, and it's reported in such a way to make it appear as an aggressive act which makes civilian flights unsafe.The logic by which these news are reported is flawed - If I fly without transponder and that makes me "stealth", how are controllers able to report to the press that there was a russian airplane in that zone at all?The ignorance on the public on the procedures and the technologies involved, and the mala-fide of somebody in the reporting cycle, reporting alarmistic news to said public is what causes this kind of outcry.Transponders are depicted like some kind of vital piece of equipment to keep airspaces safe - the truth is that they are important for civil aviation operators, who can perform their jobs more productively, but they are not mandatory on military traffic, which by its nature, is not interested in broadcasting informations about itself, depending on what kind of mission they are performing.To have the informations you are requesting (transponders on russian military aircraft) you in fact have to find pages which describe what kind of radio equipment these planes are carrying. The aircraft involved in the news reports have been SU-27 Flankers, SU-24 Fencers, TU-95 Bears, IL-78 Midas tankers, in some cases IL-20 Coot surveillance AC.If you are interested I can provide a flight manual for the SU-27 Flanker and , I believe, some other older models, yet they are in Russian and they are in pdf format.If that is not an option, if you don't put doubts in my honesty, you can take my word for it, as I have been around this kind of information for more than twenty years, and I'm not interested in advocating one particular country, or political parties or agendas. -
From what I understand, the area where MH370 was flying contained numerous holes where radar and other tracking systems were either not present or not adequate enough to continuously track the aircraft's flight. It would not really have mattered if the transponder were turned off in those areas because there were no scanning systems watching that area of the sky anyway.
exactly
snowdens an attention whore clown
Your opinion is shared by many americans, which is very worrying.
The doubt is taken away from the people - the government said he 's a traitor, then whatever he says isn't valid.
Are we kidding? What kind of moral stunt do we have to perform to keep using words like "freedom" and "democracy", when a citizen, which loves his country, and wants his country to adhere to the principles of its constitution, chooses to become persecuted by that nation, to live in exile and to even risk his life?
It's for the love of freedom and democracy, for the love of the truth being clearly given to the american people that this man has ruined his life, denouncing a government which illegaly appropriates all the information it wants from every citizen using electronic devices - and doing it secretly. It's just appalling that many people see Snowden as an attention whore and a traitor and don't even think for a second that he may just have tried to save his people liberties from what may be the biggest oppression machine human beings have ever created.
People is starting to behave like that it is not worth the effort, to understand what have caused matters like Snowden's one: we are so disturbed and afraid of having to ponder that most of what we are being fed on daily basis it's lies and fabrications, that we are better off with the official explanations, so we can continue to believe what suits us most, that we are the good guys, that other countries are the bad ones, that we are always in the right because we the west have democracy - this gives us moral and ethical superiority over whatever country or population is not western, and it makes us accept whatever is needed to inflict our democratic will to others.
Only having the doubt, that we the west have been lied many times about our moral and ethical superiority, that most of us don't actually even understand what democracy, freedom of speech, of press, transparency of the government ways mean - only having that doubt opens up scenarios so unsettling that we better get back posting **** on facebook and twitters, watching sports on the tv and get stuffed with gallons of beer on the couch. This makes us feel safe and keep clear of any feeling of guilt while we watch another "rogue country" getting bombed to bits by western air power.
-
How come then, that Malaysian flight MH370 effectively disappeared by turning its transponder off and was only tracked on military radar thereafter ?
I always understood that the transponder sent all the info to the civilian ATC - the altitude, bearing and speed and its number, hence why only military radars can easily spot and track aircraft without transponders on.
( internet disclaimer ) - not trying to be snarky, genuinely looking for information.
I don't know where you did read that, but what you imply is that radars work only if the object they observe has a device on them that broadcasts data back to the receiver.
A radar contact stays exactly the same, with or without transponder collaboration from the observed object, and ATC radars aren't really different from military ones (except for very expensive 3D complexes carried by navy ships or in some ground installation) - often they are more modern and complex systems.
The transponder, depending on the model, is capable of sending back only the altitude of the plane that carries it, after reading the data from its barometric altitude. Yet an ATC won't depend on this feature to get altitude data out of a contact, since the large numbers of planes that don't carry a transponder - or don't use it.
Another usage of the transponder is as a sort of emergency radio - For example, if I'm a pilot whose airliner is being hijacked, and I can't talk to the control tower by voice over the radio because the terrorists would hear me, I would change my transponder code to one out of a number of standard codes used to communicate emergency situations - in this case 7500 (if the situation doesn't endanger the airplane and the passengers). Other codes are employed if a pilot would want to communicate he experienced total radio failure or yet other situations.
In any case, as I mentioned, a radar contact is not by any means lost if the transponder is turned off or missing, and there is no ICAO or FAA regulation which require at all to employ transponders on aircraft. Most civilians planes have them and use them - but with military, on training or patrol or some other mission the norm is that they are not used.
-
Are there any documents supporting your accusation that US military aircraft are flying in civillian air corridors with transponders turned off? If you cant provide any, in dubio pro reo.
Military aircraft from all the world are not obliged by international aviation laws to enable their transponders. The problem with the medias outcry, is that they exploit the public ignorance on the subject. A transponder is a radio device that simply broadcasts a numeric, usually 4 digit code. Airplanes flying in VFR conditions normally use the 1200 code, at least in the continental US. Aircraft in IFR conditions (like airliners) get a code assigned by ATC when their control is passed to a specific ATC - before take off, and often when entering an area covered by a different ATC. Military airplanes "at home" (like ANG planes flying over the United States) may, or may not employ a digit which is reserved to the military.
The system works like this: civilians air controllers, monitoring flights on their radars, can watch the blips on their screens with a datablock displayed near every return: this usually renders the altitude, the bearing and speed of the observed airplane. At last, IF the observed flight has its transponder on, that 4 number digit is displayed, along with the aforementioned data. So basically it is a measure which makes ATC work a little easier - air controllers can find a specific flight on the screen just by scanning it quickly, as the transponder code univocally identifies a single airplane with a number the controller knows. As air control radars are normally pretty cluttered with flights, especially in areas with mayor cities and airports, it somehow reduces the controller's workload.
But, having the transponder on or off doesn't change at all if an aircraft is visible or not - if an AC is observed without the transponder code, it is classified as "uncollaborative return" - yet the flight parameters of the aircraft are still displayed just like all the other contacts, so it's just the matter of that single air controller knowing at a glance which plane he is observing.
For a military aircraft, using the transponder while on training or other operations, is kinda a rare thing. Russian military aircraft don't even have a transponder which is compatible with western ATC radars, they carry a military IFF transponder not unlike those carried by western military, which broadcasts an encrypted signal to military radar controllers and identify the aircraft as friendly or unknown (any plane not carrying that equipment would be classified as unknown).
As already said, flying in international airspace with no transponder broadcast has never been considered an aggressive action, and it would be treated like pretty much routine for ATCs located in Poland or Denmark, for example. "Civilians corridors" are not reserved to airliners by no aviation international law - they get criss-crossed every day hundreds of times by military aircraft all over the world - not only russian.
Having an interest in aviation, and a knowledge about said technologies and procedures, actually makes me think that medias are actually playing the usual game of terrorizing the ignorant public. There have been instances of russian military aircraft dangerously flying close to civilians, yet again, getting at like 500 meters from an airliners would be a feat happening tens of times on a daily base, all over the world - with nobody actually even bothering to report what happened, both the civilian and the military crews as well as the radar controller.
-
Seems to me that many here have no idea, none, how adroit the Pentagon and various administrations are when it comes to hiding the grisly truth of America's wars from both the American people and the world at large. What I've provided here barely scratches the surface.
Pentagon is hiding the dead
https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/how-the-pentagon-is-hiding-the-dead-862a7b45ce57
American Military Casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan Now Exceed 500,000 (Part 1 of 2)PENTAGON FUDGES THE NUMBERS TO PLACATE AMERICAN PUBLIC
Friday 18 June 2010, by Matthew J. Nasuti (Former U.S. Air Force Captain
http://kabulpress.org/my/spip.php?article15450
KabulPress.org is a respected, much cited organization. The editor himself was arrested and interrogated for nine hours by Afghan Secret Police in 2007.
http://www.kabulpress.org/my/spip.php?article4050
Former Air Force Captain Joyce Riley, a nurse who has tirelessly advocated for decades (I first came across her ~1997) on behalf of the grotesquely abused by the USG Gulf War veterans and herself a survivor of Gulf War Syndrome, despite having never been in-theater, merely nursed the medevaced troops, has put together a stunning array of evidence of the true cost to our warriors of wars and weapon tests alike. This is but a tiny part of a very substantial site, just a list of articles.
When it comes to properly accounting for the true human costs of America's wars to Americans, I have zero trust in the Pentagon, based on decades of deliberate misinterpretation, deception, definition alteration, and outright knowing whoppers of the cruelest sort. If possible, the situation's even worse when it comes to everyone else.
Regards,
John Kettler
I almost forgot, thanks for the links
-
I'll chime in once more, admittedly futilely as this really is going nowhere.
1. SAC bombers etal do NOT fly in civilian air corridors with their transponders turned off. Sorry that is a uniquely Russian phenomena. Twist and turn on that stick all you want, you can't change the fact that Russian aircraft have been doing something incredibly dangerous and have been cited for such.
Ofc you know by hearth all the routes and the patrol zones, or you have links that document that information?
Do we have an official SAC text documenting the usage of civilian transponders while on patrol? If I'd have to redirect B-52s and B-1s to nuclear strike Russia at a moment notice,
I wouldn't have them broadcasting their ids all over, even to russian civilian airspace controllers
2. International air space - really, just exactly what are you reading? Here some possible locations you missed.
Swedish News
Estonian News
Japanese News
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/22/us-japan-russia-idUSBRE97L0IO20130822
Really, the Estonians report "Military aircraft penetrated airspace for 600 meters?", the Japanese one is pretty similar. The swedish have a history with unknown submarines in their waters, for which some officers in the swedish navy coined the term "Budget Submarines", since when they appear, some forces advocate the increase of military spending in Sweden.
Moreover, when it comes to airspace violations, Americans have been doing that since the end of WW2 - U-2s, SR-71, drones nowadays and so on (Iran and Syria already shot down a pair), yet nobody has never been crying wolf.
3. Russia made a threat to Denmark that in actuality got plenty of press in Europe. I have no idea where you come to the conclusion that it is a US knee jerk reaction. Here is from a Danish paper which you could have easily googled yourself instead of coming up with that off the wall - "Europeans barely noticed a nuclear threat" nonsense.
I don't know if it's an american knee-jerk reaction, or an european one - The statement clearly said that entering the anti-ballistic system would make those country assets targeted by nuclear capable missiles (I presume that they are talking about Iskander theatre systems). Which, for those who can't really read properly, does not mean "We are going to Nuke you", but "If you will join a system which is made to intercept our nuclear missiles, you accept the fact that the assets you employ to contribute to that system will come under strike, IF a nuclear exchange should ever start"
Or, in your opinion Russia has to renounce to its nuclear deterrence ? Is that a new find that western nukes are pointed at Russia and Chine and vice-versa?
The gist of all the above is you chose to have a particular perspective. It isn't like other news sources are hard to find and they are widespread enough in countries beyond the US to put the lie to "It is all US nonsense". Chose to believe what you want but cut the crap about "as far as I know ..." if you aren't willing to even scratch the surface of news sources. All of the above took me 15 minutes to find.
My perspective is that all over the west, medias and uninformed people are falling for some who-knows-induced mechanism by which Putin's Russia is the new evil empire.
Frankly what I've seen so far, is that most of the time one could realistically surmise that all the moves Russia has done, have happened after some kind of provocation.
I'm not willing to accept a vision to which many in the west are falling today, out of their fears, because they have always been injected by terror raising medias that keep barking about the enemies of our democracies and our way of life.
There is a war party in the west which evidently has the resources to manipulate and even create information that will scare people into thinking that "we need to act before it's too late", and act means usually not good news at all.
Older people (and you don't seem to be among the youngest here) remember the kind of "games" happened during the cold war period, and whatever happens today is pretty similar, although on a smaller scope and depth. Older people would also know that this kind of things happen because of economical reasons, and all the sabre rattling normally goes to the public which needs to be constantly pressurized into believing that "your life may be changing for the worse, look at this, how can your children sleep peacefully with Russian aircraft flying into international airspace". When some country, or coalition takes charge, with a self-claimed moral or ethical superiority, while employing basically the same means (and I don't even want to mention the Snowden matter, things he cited would kinda make Putin's secret police appear as amateurs, but for some reason it's totally missing when it comes to draw some democracy rating in the west), my reaction is to profoundly doubt about its agenda.
-
I guess the U.S. should start flying B-2 spirits near the Russian border, daily, its not provocative, the air is just nicer around those parts.
afaik, SAC bombers keep patrolling international skies, and for years have patrolled near the Russian borders, with their transponders off.
In regards to B-2s, they wouldn't do much of the desired effect, as they are invisible to radars - B-52 would be kinda more noisy
-
Which is a dignity denied to the Russian war dead from Ukraine. You're missing the point. Showing photos of the dead at a solem occasion is questionable, and does nothing to remove the reality of how/where they died. Putin just reserved the right to deny any information at all about the death of Russian servicemen, which you are apparently okay with because CNN used to not be allowed to film an event designed to be a respectful, quiet ceremony.
So tell me instead of trying to run down this rabbit hole of non-comprehension. Is it okay to lie about the fates of soldiers or being at war at all?
Ofc it is not ok to lie about the fate of soldiers - and if it was for me, it wouldn't be right to be at war at all.
The initial post talked about Special Operations casualties abroad, which is, imho a matter that no government would publicly discuss.
If on one side, I don't condone or justify the actions of Mr.Vladimir Putin, I don't put much trust in governments who limit freedom of press, in any form. America has had wars, before Irak and the Bush administration, yet no government had made laws to forbid the filming of the casualties coming back home. So the question is, was the Bush administration more respectful and sensible to the soldiers whose death it caused than the previous administrations? Or it has, just maybe a little, vilified the principles of the constitution which it had swore on?
If I may arise the doubt that I'm drawing parallels between mr. Putin administration of Russia and mr. G.W Bush administration of the US, then I admit I have that temptation, although in proper social, political and historical contexts
-
First off Stephen Cohen has an agenda. He has a position about US stance on Ukraine/Russia and he argues it throughout. He is an apologist for Putin. He doesn't see much more than Putin being a nationalist. The nuclear threat against Denmark, the continued air violations etc are simply ignored as he tries to basically say everything is equal. He even makes the claim that there would be no insurrection in the Donbass if there wasn't local support. The fact the the so called revolt would have collapsed without Russia intervention or even the admitted actions by Putin's cronies that they in fact started the insurrection is ignored. Despite all that at no point does Cohen ever say the US was behind the coup, in fact he almost always explicitly says different.
Secondly again you are not listening to what is being said, but rather what you want to hear. This is what preceded the quote from prior. See the very end (my bold) where Cohen explicitly says Amy Goodman's characterization is incorrect.
AMY GOODMAN: During an interview on CNN that aired Sunday, President Obama acknowledged the United States played a role in the ouster of Ukraine’s elected president, Viktor Yanukovych, last February.
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA:Mr. Putin made this decision around Crimea and Ukraine, not because of some grand strategy, but essentially because he was caught off balance by the protests in the Maidan and Yanukovych then fleeing after we had brokered a deal to transition power in Ukraine.AMY GOODMAN: President Obama’s comments made headlines in Russia. This is Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.
SERGEY LAVROV:[translated] I have two comments which are important. There has been confirmation that the United States was directly involved, from the very beginning, in this anti-government coup d’état. And President Obama literally called it "the transition of power." Secondly, I would like to note that Obama’s rhetoric shows Washington’s intention to continue doing everything possible to unconditionally support Ukraine’s authorities, who have apparently taken a course toward a military solution to the conflict.AMY GOODMAN: That’s the Russian foreign minister and, before that, President Obama.
STEPHEN COHEN: Yeah, President Obama said something that undoubtably he was later told he shouldn’t have said, because he wasn’t clear what he was referring to. Many people have argued that the United States organized a coup in February to overthrow the president of Ukraine and bring to power of this new pro-American, pro-Western government. I do not know if that’s true. But what Obama said leads people to think that’s what he was acknowledging. He wasn’t.
Stephen Cohen may well be having an agenda - I would find hard to believe that anybody talking this subject at the tv hasn't one - senators and congressmen being constantly lobbied by whoever does that (which is something I don't want to get into but there's plenty of), being a university professor I don't see him being really more involved in this than top level politicians.
Having spoken some facts against the "hardliners" points already makes him a Putin apologist: typical, "Don't listen to what this man has to say, he is in bed with the enemy". Things like the continued air violations - of what? international airspace? because that's where russian planes were flying all the times, although media presented these like russian aircraft were violating the national airspaces of NATO or neutral countries.
Nuclear threats against Denmark? again, seriously? were the danes all running around building shelters and pillaging general-stores? That story probably made more headlines in the US than in Denmark - for sure hasn't made many in Euro countries.
And, I find it pretty believable, that the insurrection in the east has started spontaneously, and that it would have collapsed without Russian help, again, these people didn't take arms against Russia, but against Ukraine - otherwise we would see the russian army fighting against the novorossyans, leveling cities with arty and so on. What most westerners seems to be totally failing to understand, and that Cohen knows, being a scholar in Soviet history, is that Ukraine in itself is a country divided in two, with a west that is catholic and sympathetic to Poland, and an east which is orthodox and more close to Russia - two "factions" that don't even speak the same language. As said in the vid, as millions of people in the east do not want a government like the one they got, after an ouster that in any case has been a coup.
They were to have elections but, for some reason they could not take place. Instead, some thousands of people make a coup and it's instantly recognized by the west as the legit government.
What Obama has said, is ambiguous - Cohen comments that he hasn't acknowledged that the west is behind the coup, yet its remarked that Obama said something that should not have said. Fact is, we may not know if that's true, yet we know that an elected government, which has called for elections (evidently with the backing of the US and Russia) has been ousted forcibly, and who did that may be anybody, but not the east Ukrainians who revolted. Unless, you want to imply that the coup has been organized by Putin himself, to have an excuse to support the following eastern revolt
-
I'd have to agree with panzer. There are limits to the "public's right". Why should I have the "right" to say I want to see a soldier's body on the 10 o'clock news? How is that affecting my freedoms if I don't? The actual fact of the deaths is important to know what our military is doing and what our soldiers are being committed to. but actual photos of them is just a bit morbid.
lol. gentlemen: seriously? morbidity? how many people are ready to pay for that kind of ****?
I'd say, a very, very small percentage of the populace.. I for sure, am not interested in such things and nobody I personally know is.
Yet, we weren't talking about the dismembered bodies of soldiers fallen to auto grenade launchers, but about coffins getting back with a flag on them.
Does that pertain to morbidity? because if, in your opinion it does, I think we have just witnessed what I was referring before, about a government who decides on what its people should or should not see - in fact, we have extended the meaning of the term "morbidity".
and .. "limit's to public rights"? do we need to mention our democracies constitutions? But in fact I don't think that the replies were all serious so anyway.
-
Are you worse served on crime reporting by not getting full page glossy photos of the victims? Does not getting to see the crispy remains of airplane crash victims make you less aware of the plane crash? It's simple human respect to give dead folks, and their families some privacy. Soldier's are not some how less human and less deserving of that respect. The facts of their deaths, and often the details of their deaths are publicly available and always have been. This is the stuff Putin is withholding and where the issue arises, and is the stuff that's relevant to the discussion on if it's "worth it"
Shouldn't that left to the public to decide? I mean, if a reporter tries to perform a dirty stunt by exploiting images taken from dead bodies, or other kinds of similar "porn", the public itself, the news communities and whoever is concerned should raise some kind of reserve against that particular journalist, or heading that made the feat, basically censoring him/it in a democratic way, at least imho.
Otherwise, it's like the government decides that people isn't "mature enough" to decide - yet I think it's a very dangerous road this one for a public opinion to accept.
-
you mis interpreted. You really should pay closer attention, the statement you cited is exactly not what you described.
Here is what Stephen Cohen was saying. The European ministers met and formed an agreement for a coalition gov't to be followed by elections. Obama and Putin get on the phone and each ask the other "Are you behind this" meaning the coalition. Both answer yes. Neither is saying "I am behind the coup".
Start at 33:30 mark.
From the transcript:
Here’s what happened. And he’s right about Crimea. He just let the cat out of the bag here. An agreement was brokered in February. Everybody think back. It’s only one year ago. Foreign ministers of Europe, as violence raged in the streets of Kiev, rushed to Kiev and brokered a deal between the sitting president and the opposition leaders—Yanukovych—that he would form a coalition government and call new elections in December. And everybody thought, "Wow, violence averted. We’re back on a democratic track." And what happened? The next day, mobs took to the streets, stormed the presidential palace; Yanukovych, the president, fled to Russia.
But we now know that when that deal was struck by the European ministers, Putin and Obama spoke on the phone, and Putin said to Obama, "Are you behind this?" And Obama says, "I am. Let’s get back on peaceful track." And then he asks Putin, "Are you behind it?" And Putin said, "A hundred percent." And the next day, this happened. So, something happened overnight. Obama lost control of the situation. He didn’t know what was going on. But when he says that they negotiated a peaceful transition to power, he’s not referring to the overthrow of Yanukovych; he’s referring to the deal he signed onto to keep the Ukrainian president in office for another eight or nine months until national elections.
Yet in the preceding minutes he argues several times that the US is involved in the overthrowing of Yanukovich - at 31.50, before Obama speeches, "During an interview on the cnn on sunday, president Obama acknowledged that the United States played a role in the ousting of Ukraine elected president Viktor Yanukovich - I may have misinterpreted that part, but much of what is before sounds like that
-
here:
http://www.democracynow.org/2015/2/3/is_ukraine_a_proxy_western_russia
At about minute 34 they speak about the phone call between Obama and Putin (not a meeting like I mentioned earlier - I didn't remember that right).
In the minutes before that, from about 30 and on, it is described how the United States is involved in the coup which deposed the former president.
What you call facts aren't the only ones - it's always been a major problem of all the matters like this, considering the facts that confirm a given point of view, negating the others.
As far as I'm concerned, the whole thing is something which has happened before, for example, in the Kosovo crisis. I'd say that the US are trying to prevent that the EU reinforce their economic ties with Russia, with the risk of the Euro threatening the Dollar as the major world currency, and to do that, they broker a proxy war right in the middle of EU and Russia (by the way, the pipelines that bring russian gas and oil to Europe pass through Ukraine) But, it's only my opinion, which plenty of people would describe as heretical.
As I said, I don't justify nor trust Russia, but I have plenty of facts by which not to trust or justify the USA or the Euro nations.
-
Can anyone else imagine a talk like that between Putin and Obama? No?
Yeah I didn't think so.
So either I'm lying or the interview video was made by the KGB?
I'll be trying to find that vid and post the link.
And even if I don't justify or condone what the Russian government has done after the removal of the previous government, yet I don't think that the opinions of several millions people living in eastern Ukraine, which don't want to live under the Ukrainian flag should be ignored or censored - moreover it's the same people who has had their families killed and their property destroyed because of this war, yet they didn't form up their militias to fight the "eastern invader", but the Ukrainian army.
-
This is a Russian instigated war and it won't end till Russia gets it's bloody hands off Ukraine. You can criticize the Ukrainian gov't all you want and some of it might even be true, but that is all just a distraction. We know who started the war, we know who keeps it going. Get your gov't the hell out of their country and then maybe someone might actually care about your opinion of their gov't.
there is in fact the matter of an elected government being removed forcibly by people who did not represent all of Ukraine, which is the event that caused all those that followed.
If Russia has financed a coup to remove the former president, then it's all Russia's fault. Yet I recently watched an interview with an american think-tank, a college teacher in political sciences, who reported that in a meeting during the "revolution" (a G-8 or the like, I believe) Putin asked Obama "are you behind all this thing", and Obama answered "Absolutely so"
New offensive in Donbass?
in Combat Mission Black Sea
Posted
Sympathy. I 've been labeled as a somebody trying to condone Russia's policies because I pointed out at some discrepancies in several press reports, by using some basic logical reasonment supported by some equally basic technology facts. Trying to reason - and I'm one that has got no problems in changing his views if they are proven wrong - like you earlier stated is probably useless.
Stephen Cohen being called an apologist of Putin yet, in a democratic society, if he is, then so what? Listen to his arguments then decide if he is wrong or right, or something in between.
Yet, my impression is that people like him must be suppressed at once, quickly make them somebodies who are traitors, who have an agenda, who are apologetic. Don't you ever dare to put them debating the subject on the medias, against someone who has opposing views.
Most of those who speak clearly are massively convinced that ALL what is good and just stays only on one side; it's one of the phenomenons that has hurt the human race more than most other things, that has caused so much wars, death and destruction that one must ask himself how come, in 21st century, humans are still prone to the same vices they had thousands of years before.
Also, some are quick in calling others reasons "wishful thinking", yet most of what they elaborate, when it comes to perform some mental effort (ie, not discussing news links), is that Russia failed, that Russian economy will not allow it to reach its goals, that Ukraine will come on top - not wishful at all.
You mention russia's policies of the last century - yet from your position you seem to fail to recollect all the disgusting feats the US has imposed to other countries, elected presidents assassinated and replaced by military juntas in all the third world: the unlimited support to fanatic religious governments like the Saudi one, who are even more liberticide and suppressive than Syrian, Iranian or Iraqi regimes (womens can't drive or go to school, thieves getting their hands cut and so on), and finally, when "soft power" is failing, the deliberate invasion of a sovereign country; also with the revolting intellectual dishonesty of an administration trying to justify it by inventing the presence of WMDs, and the goofy attempt to ostracize whatever countries tried to oppose that in the appropriate venues (freedom fries? u kidding?) That, on the aftermath of something like 911, for which whoever is responsible owes a neverending debt to the whole human race and of which, only folks who believe right or wrong always stays on one side may believe the explanations.
Today we are seeing all too well the results of the aforementioned policy - ISIS coming out right where the americans pulled out. Hey, the germans, the french, the russians did warn the international community of the danger : "The day america pulls off from Iraq, fanatics will arise and start genociding the populations of the area and pose a greater threat to humanity than Saddam Hussein".
But Saddam had the biological laboratories on wheels - he had to be stopped.
Also the fact that the "previous administration" based part (not that it's known how big of a part) of its foreign acts on a document, beacon of freedom and democracy worldwide, entitled something like "policies on US world dominance" (plenty of web content on "Wolfowitz Doctrine".
But, being this "whataboutism", I don't expect, nor desire, to get any sympathy. (Let the whole point of the world "Whataboutism" not concern us, some folks have arguments, others have tactics)
I am unsure whether the world is falling prey to a zionist conspiracy like somebody declares nowadays - it wouldn't surprise me, yet I want to think that reasonable men in places of power still can avert that kind of thing.
Yet accepting all the official views and propaganda on the Ukraine (and on all the other political/international crisis) , coming only from one side, to me equates to start calling folks "french" because they just don't want to accept my points of view.