[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

I'll leave others to write up the several pages of response you are likely to get.  I won't do your work for you.  

 

You'd think if there were some changes significant enough to be called "major", they would be significant enough for you to remember off the top of your head.  But in my experience, whenever someone vigorously argues with you for a while and then finally at the end says "I'm not gonna waste my time answering that, I won't do your work for you", it's usually because they've realised they don't have an argumentative leg to stand on.  

 

 

Go pull the features list in every release then come back.

 

I do - I love pouring through features lists for every release, eager to see what they've come up with.  But because I was honestly curious to know if I had missed anything, I did it again, just like you asked.  Most of the feature lists are repeating what every other game has, because they aren't changelogs, they are meant to advertise the game to new customers.  Parts of it are listing off new weapons and units.  Many of them are listing features that were in CMx1 and have finally been made available to CMx2.  And then you get the odd minor change, like waypoint dragging or hotkey groups.  

 

And geez, gimme at least a couple minutes before you reply, I have a tendency to immediately re-read what I just posted and edit it

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

  That is why I cautioned you about tailoring your responses to be less all encompassing "the world is falling and BF is essentially ripping us off just cranking out the same old tripe"  My words, but they are pretty close to what you have said.

 

Um, maybe it's just be, but I think that's a pretty hyperbolic exaggeration of what I said.  I think I've remained calm, polite and productive throughout this entire thread, aside from one time I said "not a damn thing is going to change", and while that might be an unfair and frustrated vent, it's a far cry from the kind of bannable whining you're talking about.  

 

 

 

They are eerily familiar to the point that you should probably recognize the similarity if you have actively been reading the forum over the last couple years.  I could probably drag up a dozen threads that usually ended up with a banning and always ended up locked.

 

Well I can't speak to whatever their attitude was to get them banned, but if the complaints are similar to mine, maybe that should suggest something?

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

But that is the point, the game is getting better.  That you can't see the difference between CMSF and CMBS just goes to show how little effort you are putting into examining them.

 

That is not the starting point for a productive discussion. 

 

Sure it is!  Here:  What kind of major changes have you seen, other than new units and new weapons in new theatres of war?  Maybe I missed some, or I'm not thinking clearly.  I think the most significant change I can think of was shader and bump mapping support, and I personally wouldn't qualify that as a major change.  We've gotten water, bridges, on-map artillery and anti-aircraft support, but that's just bringing us to the level we had in CMx1.  What else is there?

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Expansion packs to CMSF?  LOL that is so out there it is simply funny and not really worth responding to.  But I did get a laugh.

 

Oh come on now, I almost thought I was going to get a productive discussion with you.  That kind of immature tone is uncalled for. 

 

 

 

As to the response from others, you may want to look around a little more closely.  Most of this forum is probably suspecting you are a return poster that had been previously banned and is probably headed for it again.

 

Well that is just a level of paranoia that I am not sure how to respond to.  Anyone else here feel okay with this guy speaking for them?  Anyone else suspect that even though I made this account 5 years ago, I for some reason made another account, got banned on it, and then came back to this original one?

 

 

 

I personally am not offended because the opinions you have expressed are so far off the mark they simply are not worth taking seriously.

 

You say that, and yet, my comments seem to have struck a nerve with you.  I mean I guess it is to be expected, you get the same thing anywhere else - criticize a niche product with a small, tight-knit community as an outsider, and some people are going to get pissed.  But how else do you expect this game to get even better?  Does Battlefront have a feedback button or take surveys?  Did I miss one?

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Regarding the case you brought forward, i think it' s (in most cases) not their busniness strategy to sell broken games via preorders - that' s just the result of their actual business strategy failing. It' s either an attempt to save what' s left of an overly ambitous project or the result of the gamestudio failing to meet a deadline set by the publisher. I assure you it would not be a sound business strategy to intentionally sell broken games via preorders. Firstaval, who, in his right mind, plans on developing a broken game in the first place? LOL! Secondly, starting a company with the intent to sell broken games via preorders would be a very short sighted plan. You maybe get away with it once, but not a second time. I know a couple of game studios that went bankrupt over releasing an alpha/beta as a full priced title, doing that is nothing you want to do.

 

And yet, there is plenty of evidence to show that it happens.  My point is that the fact that a company hasn't disappeared after 10 years isn't necessarily an indicator of a healthy business strategy.  

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Oh no! Not another discussion about Battlefronts business strategy. They usually end in lots of quarrel, no results and Steve dropping by saying something along the lines of: "Had our strategy in the last 10 years been so bad as you claim, our company wouldnt exist anymore. So naturally we must have been doing something right. Let the market decide whether our not our business model works"..

 

Another example are all the companies that get away with selling preorders to broken games that they rushed out the door before they were finished.  It's a sound "business strategy", because it makes them money - if it wasn't, they would have stopped doing it 20 years ago - but it doesn't mean it is one that anyone would knowingly support.  

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Those items are absolutely necessary to have a product to make money and survive.  Creating a follow command generates zero additional income, but sucks up resources.  You are comparing apples and oranges - time to develop a new feature versus time to create necessary components for a new game.  In addition a lot of the scenarios and campaigns are done by folks who are volunteers and do not have anything to do with writing code.  The follow command demands time from one specific critical individual - Charles and he apparently does not feel it is an item at the top of his queue.

 

I wasn't aware that taking the old engine and putting it in new theatres and scenarios was "absolutely necessary to make money and survive".  And you're saying that improving the UI and adding more features generates zero additional income?  You wouldn't believe the number of people to whom I've shown this game who say they want to enjoy it, but can't get past the UI.

 

 

 

That is simply venting.  It is blatantly wrong, even ridiculously so.  It is totally human to be frustrated, but venting like that will immediately get you a reaction on these boards.  You can just say you are simply frustrated over the slow development of the UI.  It has been quite a few years since CMBN came out so that is not an outrageous thing to say.  Steve would likely agree, unfortunately as a resource versus income issue it just hasn't reached the priority queue yet and if Steve wants it and it hasn't gotten there then you gotta realize that it isn't from lack of desire.  First and foremost it is a business.

 

It is venting, and I made every indication that that is what I was doing.  It isn't "blatantly and ridiculously wrong" though - Normandy, Afghanistan and Black Sea and the like all amount to expansion packs for Shock Force.  The game hasn't changed, aside from minor bug fixes and tweaks, just the scenario it's in.  

 

I understand it is a business first and foremost.  But, like a friend of mine said when I showed him this game, "I can't support this business model".

 

 

 

 As to some of the reactions you are getting

 

Actually for the most part, most of the reactions I am getting have been quite positive and supportive, and I feel we've been having a really productive discussion here, don't you?  I think one person was highly offended by my criticisms.  

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Yes, CM moves in tiny baby steps. However, there were some improvements that I'd call "mayor". Being able to shoot at planes. Onmap mortars.

 

If you look at the core of it, CM is a very tiny game. Extremely complex, but also, just like BFC, rather small. However, I do like that BFC seems to have found the right speed to both deliver us regular upgrades to the engine while at the same time staying in business.

 

Weren't being able to shoot at planes and on-map mortars available in the very first CMx1 games?

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Because you are throwing a hisssy fit because *your* favourite feature has not been implemented.  Just because it is important to you does not make it the top priority.  Sorry.  There have been lots of improvements in the game since CMSF just not the one that you really want.  Steve has mentioned before that he plans to do a major UI improvement push at some point and so has been intentionally not making a lot of UI changes in the mean time.  We all just have to be patient and see what he comes up with.  Then you can throw another hisssy fit because it does not do some other thing you really wanted

 

Oh come on now, there's no need for hyperbole.  I hardly think anything I've said so far could qualify as a "hissy fit", but I did offer some constructive criticisms and shared my pessimistic feelings about them getting implemented, and I understand some people don't like to hear that sort of thing, so I'm sorry you had to read it.  

 

If more people would prefer new scenarios and units over feature and UI changes, then I guess mine is the unpopular opinion.  But if nobody voices their opinion on what they'd like to see, then Battlefront will just have to make their best guess as to what would sell well, and it might not be what any of us would want to get out of this game we all love so much.  

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Not true. I have been playing CMx2 since CMSF and there have been improvements albeit it has to be in baby steps. BF is a very small company with small business budget. Many times with good improvement threads the guys at BF would love to do, but unfortunately it has to be in baby steps because of the reason I gave that Steve has repeated through the years. For instance you can find threads saying how great it would be to have a FOLLOW command. Hell, Steve will tell you it is on the top of things he would like and you see there still no FOLLOW command. And HE is ONE of THE OWNERS! It is not like they do not want to make enhancements, but they are limited in resources.  Just be patient, and remember development is an ongoing process. As far as CM goes CMBS is SO much more polished than CMSF to show there has been progression. Despite CM’s shortcomings it is still the best thing out there in this genre. it will only get better still.

 

Well if they're so limited in resources that they don't have the time to code a follow command, where did they find the time and money to develop all the new 3D models, research the realistic characteristics, design new missions and campaigns, and develop a storyline for Black Sea?

 

I understand that this is a small company and there's only so much they can do, I just find the choice of what they choose to do with their limited resources questionable, from what I can see here as a consumer.  But then of course, I'm not seeing things from their perspective, I don't know how things really work on the inside, and I know it's way more complicated than my brief paragraph forum posts can imply.  Maybe they had to quickly whip up something like Black Sea to keep the company afloat, I don't know.  I'm just not feeling the labour of love in this series anymore.  

 

But you're right, despite it's shortcomings it is still the best thing out there in this genre, and I do still love it, I have a great time playing it, and I will continue to play it.  But unless I see some changes, I don't think I'm going to pay for any new releases in this series any more.  Maybe that's what it would take to see some improvements to Combat Mission - a competitor.  If people keep buying rehashed versions of the same old engine in new scenarios, they're going to keep churning them out until people stop buying them.  

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Worst. Post. Ever.

 

Why is that?  I mean it's true.  I love this game to death but it's been 8 years since the last major update.  Everything after Shock Force has amounted to what other companies would sell as expansion packs.  I honestly cannot think of a single major change to Combat Mission that has been made since Shock Force.

[Know all at a glance!]

So can any Combat Mission devs chime in as to why the heck this, or any kind of situational awareness aid hasn't been implemented yet?

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Moeburn,

Your point is very valid to the short comings Combat Mission has as far as Real Time play goes. Fortunately Steve, at Battlefront is a Real Time player and understands this. Hopefully sometime in the future the game will adopt something like the ROSTER concept that addresses exactly what you are talking about.

 

ROSTER SUMMERY:This is a drop down, and collapsible situational tool that allows one to see the status of all information one would only get by selecting each unit individually. It is basically a visual players radio that allows him to see 360 degrees at all times that connects him to the force, but it has sound toggle too. It can also be used to navigate the game. Read the thread describing it if you want to know all it's functions. it is the ultimate situational tool for the player that can be deciphered at a glance being icon based.

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/103880-know-all-at-a-glance/

 

As for dealing with RT play as it is now I can tell you a few good hints. Some of which others have mentioned.

1) Do not approach RT with a WEGO mindset. Be prepared to probably take more casualties. Don't dwell on it. Keep the overall in mind and don't get too caught up in micro managing.

 

2) Try to stay at camera level 4-5 so you can keep on eye an as much of the force at all times. This is the hardest thing as far as Real Time goes compared to other RT games. The Line of sight and terrain are much more complex, and here is where the biggest problem lies as you have to drop down losing sight of the force compared to WEGO which can rewind and see from multiple angles. This is the prime reason for the ROSTER concept to “see all” at all times like WEGO can. The idea is to take the frustrating part out so you can enjoy the fun part like the combat and strategy.

 

3) Become more attuned to the LOS/target tool to get a feel for the land from above.

 

4) Use the indefinite PAUSE command. Issue it first, then issue your order, check LoS and so on. When satisfied, release the Pause to start the move. This technique will allow you to be able to simulate a more WEGO approach where things can be checked without committing to a move. It can also be used to coordinate multiple units to move at the same time. Just select them all and release the Pause command.

 

5) Get a mouse with many buttons, and Nostromo speedpad. With these you will issue commands faster than you though imagined. If you do not have these or want to invest, then make a custom hotkey setup on your regular keyboard optimized for REAL TIME. The idea is to make the most used command accessible with the left hand by feel, and the rest accessed via the spacebar. If you are searching for hotkeys, or moving the curser a lot hit command buttons you are too slow.

 

6) Lastly, don’t play against me real time

 

The fact that this roster concept was brought up and heavily discussed over 3 years ago only solidifies my fear that not a damn thing in the Combat Mission series is ever going to change.  

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Have you tried fighting from a raised three-quarter camera position that keeps most of your men in view? That's what I do and I can usually manage a company on the attack. Granted, that means I'm generally only pushing a platoon around at once, while the two or three others are lending support and mostly static. Other than that, I (rarely) smack the pause button when things get too intense.

 

Yeah that is the best solution I've come up with, is hanging the camera in a position that keeps all my units in view.  Of course there are instances when you really need to zoom in on something to target or navigate it properly.

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

One of the things you should learn to live with in CM is that disasters will happen. Casualties are routine but we're all going to have those "one guy with a PPsh wiped out a squad and repelled a platoon" moments.

 

Absolutely, I welcome those moments, when they are a result of my poor tactics and planning.  When that happens, it makes the game feel more intense, more realistic, and I keep playing.  Not when they are a result of a cumbersome UI.  If I didn't even get a chance to see it happen, then it doesn't feel like I lost that unit because of my poor skills, it feels like I lost them because of a crappy interface, and that frustrates me and I end up reloading the last save game.  

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

 An auto pause on casualties or something could be nice though. 

 

Yes!  Even something just as simple as that.

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

The second type is the 'your own personal war movie' type. For these people loosing is okay as long as it included some evocative Spielbergian cinematic touches along the way. To optimize CM gameplay you have to first figure out first which personality type you are. 

 

That is absolutely me, and that's partly what I love about this game - the scenario editor lets you create your own personal war movie stories.  But I just find it so baffling that I can have a floating camera to see all my unit's icons in mid air, and if any of them encounter any trouble, they start flashing, but they don't even make a beeping noise if they're off screen, or a text console to show me messages, or a minimap, or anything like that to make the game even more enjoyable.  I like to lose because I was outwitted, because I didn't solve the puzzle, because my tactics weren't smart enough.  I don't like to lose because of a cumbersome UI.

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Remember you are not playing the part of all-knowing Godalmighty in the game, you're playing the part of - usually - the company commander. Sometimes the company commander discovers to his horror that his western outpost has been over-run while his attention was turned elsewhere and he's being encircled. War is hell that way.

 

Well the company commander is quite capable of keeping his floating camera high up in the air looking down on the battlefield to see if any of his unit's icons start flashing, you'd think he'd have the resources to have a second monitor with that view permanently up, or a beeping noise in addition to the flashing when they're off screen, or a text console or something.

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Well, I play almost exclusively RT...and like MikeyD says, that is, at least to me, a feature of RT..sometimes you lose the bubble and your guys pay the price.  I usually play at a decent elevation so I can scan the battlefield and I keep a good unit rotation, but when the fur flies....it can get overwhelming.  

 

My one concession to large or really intense battles is that I may <ahem> cheat a little and hit ESC to pause the game...especially if I need to do mundane things like have my infantry grab Javelins while mounted or to find a particular unit....then I resume.

 

WeGO does have it's benefits...although I find it equally annoying to have to watch your guys die horrible deaths for 1 minute and not be able to do anything...so it's really a personal preference...I just find RT keeps the game moving...which is important for me as my CM time is often at a premium.

 

Good luck and good hunting.

 

Yeah, I like WeGo's ability to go back and review what happened for each unit, but I don't like that I have to watch my guys die for a whole minute, so I play RT.  I've figured out how to make it work - using high elevation camera angles to see the units flashing, pausing more, but this is really a simple feature that I feel should be added.

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Where did you get this information from?

 

 

From an old thread a long time ago, asking about the quality of the graphics engine, one of the creators started to chime in.  IIRC, he said something along the lines of "Shock Force was always designed to have Real Time, to appeal to more players, but we needed to keep WeGo to please the old players, so because of coding limitations and the way the realtime engine works, the game was built around realtime and configured to run wego as an option" - I think I was asking why the framerate didn't improve dramatically if the game pre-calculated everything before each turn in WeGo, and he said it's because WeGo is using the real time engine, so all the bullet and projectile flight paths are still being calculated in real time, just the AI movement decisions are precalculated.

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Unless you play turnbased mode (WeGo), of course. Personally i recommend you to play WeGo when you play larger battles, after some time you will get accustomed to it and find it easier than RT.

 

Well yeah, but Shock Force and onwards were designed around Realtime, and without a realtime way of alerting you to various things happening across the map, it feels like an incomplete implementation of realtime.

[How do you guys manage multiple units at once, without turning around and finding half your units are dead?]

Unlike a lot of real time strategy games I've played, Combat Mission seems to not like to alert you when your units are under fire.  All you get is the floating icon above their heads starts flashing, but that's only if they're even on screen.  I've found that if I'm zoomed in on some other unit, or my back is turned so that I can't see some of my friendly units, I'll turn the camera around and find that they all somehow died and I have no idea how.  Especially when one of your units is already in a gunfight so the sound of gunfire gets washed out by the other sounds of gunfire.

 

It would be nice to see some way of alerting you that one of your units is under attack.  Maybe some voice acting, so they come on the radio and yell "taking fire!"?  Or maybe a little flashing red arrow comes up on the screen to point in the direction you should turn your camera.  Or maybe a small minimap so that you can see all your floating icons at once?  Or maybe a text console at the top of the screen, so that even if your unit is off-screen, you can see something like "1h23m - M2A3 #4 - Laser Warning", and maybe even scroll back in history to see previous messages?

 

Right now there's just no way for me to safely manage multiple units at once, so I end up doing everything one unit at a time, and it's very inefficient.  Considering how little Combat Mission has changed over the years, I am feeling a little pessimistic about this series...

[Playing the 3rd mission in the demo, can't get the stinger team to fire?]

Maybe the mission designer also wasn't aware that they couldn't fire from a flatbed?  It just seems random to give them the flatbed and not give it to any of the other humvee-mounted units in this mission.

[Playing the 3rd mission in the demo, can't get the stinger team to fire?]

I'm just wondering why they, and nobody else, got a flatbed version of the humvee in that mission, if it makes no difference whatsoever.  I'm no military expert, but it seems plausible to me that, as long as the humvee isn't moving, they should be able to fire a stinger from the flatbed area.  

[Playing the 3rd mission in the demo, can't get the stinger team to fire?]

Yes and while you are at it acquire all the missiles first. Last thing you want to see is that truck get blown up with the rest of your AA missiles..

 

Thanks for the reply! So why are they in a flatbed humvee if they have to dismount to fire a stinger?