JC77
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Posts posted by JC77
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"the US should really hand back a significant portion of your country to native Americans."
Why, were they a high school glee club? Did they construct the land with their hands?
Or did they consider publicly torturing captured enemies to death in the village square a rollicking form of entertainment? They were all at war with each other endlessly and held only what they could with the tomahawk, long before any settlers arrived. Their tenure was successful murder, nothing else.
The native Americans are still here, by the way, as many as when the country was formed. They drive pick up trucks instead of riding horses, and live in houses not tents, and they don't torture people. They live better lives and are better people. The only thing they "lost" was the right to kill people with impunity when they felt like it - they were pushed west when they attacked settlers and lost wars against them.
Long before all that, disease certainly hurt them. Modern medicine doubled their life expectancy. Both mattered more to life and health than political anything. But hey, if anyone (native or not) wants to go back to riding horses and living in tents, living off deer hunting, they are perfectly welcome. They just don't get to murder anybody for sport.
Your moral equivalence nonsense is just that.
And here you have proved that you use morals to suit your needs and remove them when they don't. You have okayed the evil of one side because it is the side you side with. Never once have I morally okayed slavery to justify the Confederacy. You pinned yourself against the debate wall with your own moral argument.
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JC77- a true non apology apology that it is five times as offensive as direct argument. If you actually want to drop it, then just drop it, don't get up on a soapbox and proclaim that no one else should say anything on the subject you brought up, and oh by the way here is my last bucket of snide. On the substance, trying to separate the US civil war from the morality of slavery is like trying separate white and rice. It doesn't work, it doesn't matter how often the attempt is made. The war happened because men wanted to imprison and beat their workers instead of paying them a market wage - it was more profitable than justice, for them personally - and for no other reason. When they tried to force that moral monstrosity onto other men in their own backyards, those other men said no, and when the offenders pressed the point, we handed them their heads.
About the possibility that I may have offended you personally, I very much meant it. An apology like that does not mean I surrender my beliefs to you. Sorry.
Since you will only back a legalistic argument into a moralist corner, I wonder how you do feel about the Native Americans treatment both before 1861 and during the Reconstructionist Republican (Union) period after 1865?
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I seriously take full responsibility for moving the OP's worthy subject into a couple of us "re-fighting the, um, War of 1861-1865." My initial post (page 1 I think) was jesting and seemed to be thought that way by some members. I also do not want to start a flame war here, especially in some other person's thread.
Ultradave, thanks for the kind conversation and the kind words.
I apologize to GSX, too, as I feel I probably have dragged you into this. I took your initial post that I responded to not as a moralist question but simply a legalistic question.
I realized that both Jason and I were heading to a heated discussion that I believe breaks the rules on this forum. I have asked to take it private but JasonC will not. He appears to me to imagine that anyone who does not agree with him clearly agrees with slavery, and then paints them into that corner rather than simply argue was there the right for the states to secede. I have not heard anyone here say they shore would like to have them some slaves to work on thar yard. Furthermore, Jason, you sanctified everything concerning the Union cause in that post with apparently no true willingness to admit how disunited the Union was on this issue. Read the diary of the soldiers that fought for the Union.
I will say, again, legally there is enough pre-war evidence that the South had the right to secede. However, I will not be drawn into a situation where I am painted with a stereotype which I must first defend the (lack of) morality of slavery to talk about the reality of the legal right. I will in PM's, but not in this thread.
By the way you may be interested to know that my brother-in-law is African American as are my nieces and nephews. We can discuss this issue and still be a loving and close family in the end.
Finally, Jason, I doubt it will come to anything, but if there is in some way I truly offended you then I apologize. I did not join this forum to potentially be a "keyboard badass" or to offend anyone from anywhere. Do not mistake that as an agreement to your argument, I am still readily willing to discuss this via PM.
Again, sorry to all. Most of all to the OP.
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JasonC, we can take it to PM anytime you'd like and believe me I will be happy to be frank.
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Interestingly, though, where I live in North Carolina it actually IS prohibited to secede now. The prohibition was added to the state constitution after the Civil War.
Ultradave, I stand corrected and appreciate that. To clarify the now period I was speaking of in my above post was concerning the banter on Western Maryland, Colorado and the constant bickering of California and not including the 11 states of Rebellion. I would imagine that the prohibition was added, probably around the time they re-entered the Union (4 July 1868 for NC). Also, North Carolina does have a petition to secede from the Union dated 2012.
Again, thanks.
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Jason, I don't believe GSX was speaking of the moral right, but simply the right of ANY state to secede. You add the morality of it, not to mention the dripping sanctification of the northern position to discourage argument. There is nothing written above that takes away the legal right of the state to secede in 1846, 1860, 1861 or now. I'm sure that every member of this board can agree that slavery was and is evil.
With that said, as a new member with no reputation, I will dismiss myself from this thread (except to recommend books or games) as it is clear where this could lead to an uncivil discourse that could be better furthered through PM's or not at all rather than cause a headache with Battlefront.
With all due respect as always.
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Juju, I wish I could be helpful, but the only thing I can say is thanks sincerely for making my wargaming experience more fun.
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I have always been something of a US civil war buff and have bought more than a few books, Footes ones included and grants Memoirs as mentioned above. Steven Sears also has written books than are interesting and pretty much in depth, Gettysburg for one but more interesting to me was his book on Chancellorsville which directly preceded the aforementioned doomed campaign.
Someone once wrote (perhaps Foote), that every southern boy can imagine that it's a minute before Pickets charge and the War is not yet lost. Yet I think the war was lost for the South by Anteitam/Sharpsburg. For me both this one and Shiloh showed the future of attritional warfare and a portent of the future 60 or so years where the defence trumped the offence.
The South just couldn't afford to fight a war against the massive forces that the North could bring to bear. If the South had headed straight for Washington after 1st Bull run then perhaps it may have been possible to secede in a form of negotiated peace.
However, that may have precluded a United States intervening in both world wars and where would that have left the world?
It does seem strange from a British persons point of view though that while it was the right of the original 13 states to secede from Britain! it wasn't the right of the southern states to leave that union only a few decades later.
Amen. It was all "about the Benjamins."
Still, it's a fascinating period in world history and I'm currently re-reading Pickets charge by George Ripey Stewart, which probably explains the whole war in one action, initial Southern success and zeal followed by inevitable failure and disappointment.CheersMy 2nd Great Grandfather made that charge in the 37th North Carolina Infantry. He was taken POW at Gettysburg and sent to "Pint" Lookout (Point Lookout).
Also had a 2nd Great Grandfather serve in the 31st Mississippi Infantry and then 8th Mississippi Cavalry under General Forrest.
Finally I had 2nd Great Uncle who served in the 4th Mississippi Infantry and made the fateful charge at Franklin, Tennessee 30 November 1864. (while not as well known, it was far worse than "Picketts" charge and darn near criminal).
I'm currently writing regimental histories of the 4th, 31st and 8th Mississippi regiments and its members.
Cheers to you all!
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Thank you guys for your suggestion.
About Civil War PC games, what's the best for you?
I played (and enjoyed) Take Command seires and also Sid Meier's Gettysburg and Battlefront battles (Shiloh, Chickamauga, Antietam, Gettysburg).
Scourge of War series with RebBugler's mods. Tiller continued to make games and they are still available, too.
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What is this Civil War you speak of? I believe it is correctly identified as the War of Northern Aggression, sir, or the War Between The States.
If I may, I would like to second Bil's mentioned site above ( http://www.civilwar.org/), and if you have ancestors who suffered on those fields don't hesitate to donate in their name.
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Juju, I hope this is taken as the compliment I mean it to be...I won't even play MG until you release your mod. Your mod is very, very appreciated. Thank you for all of your work!
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Thank you nik mond! One of my favorites!
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Baron, your uniform mods are absolutely art.
Thank you for your hard work!
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Bil, I hope you and Greenasjade get some kind of money out of this, because I have never bought these games before but bought it after reading your AAR's. That was the only reason I bought the game.
I thank you sir.
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Thanks BF. I am a new customer, decided to buy the games when I saw the AAR 'Elefant' done by Greenasjade and Bil. Read all of Bil's AAR's after that and bought the game. But I almost did not when I read the download policy.
So, thanks again, and thanks to Bil and Greenasjade.
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umlaut, thank you sir for the incredible map.
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Sneaksie, thank you so much. I am doing that now (downloading steam). I know I probably sort of ripped myself off, but honestly I love the original ToW so much that it's worth it to me. No offense with Kursk, but I enjoy the ability to play the entire war, not just one battle.
Thank you again, I truly do appreciate it.
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Hi Schrullenhaft, I have already contacted Von Smeed at the CDV boards, it is (I'm beggining to believe) 1C and not CDV (the download, which I purchased). I know it is not CDV, again, due to Von Smeed.
My Kalypso is dead because my DVD cracked from continuous use. It worked fine from the release date until it cracked a few days ago.
I will check with 1C Publishing as you have suggested and Gametap. I sincerely appreciate any and all advice. I love this game far more than ToW Kursk (I guess because you can play as Poland, France etc., which you can't in Kursk as I understand it).
One last thing, is there any company selling the download (I'm eager to get playing) that is already patched and ready to play that I could purchase today? I'm willing to throw good money after bad to get playing today. I had been working on a campaign and had just finished a battle but have yet to be able to test it. It's killing me, lol.
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Also, Sneaksie, if it helps I wanted to add:
Amazon automatically downloads this game to my Documents and Settings folder. I have tried to patch it here, as well as having moved it to other locations (Programs, C:, etc.). The unpatched game works, but the patch I downloaded from above does not recognize ANY location I have tried.
I have also used Amazon to purchase and download Kursk 2, (I'm not a huge fan of this game, btw) and it works fine and was the correct version to begin with.
All in all, this has been extremely frustrating with the DVD cracking because there is no way to play the game without a DVD. Then I download the game to get playing again quickly, only to be stuck in this current state.
I cannot thank you enough for your help, I do sincerely appreciate it.
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Sneaksie, it did not work. I will explain in detail.
I downloaded two different times from the link you provided for the patch. After downloading the patch I double click on it to patch the game and I get this message:
The setup has detected that no version of Theatre Of War is installed.The update requires a previous version of the game to be installed. Setup cannot continue.
I can play the downloaded from Amazon version that is outdated, so the game itself works. The patch appears to not recognize the game is installed. I have even taken the patch and dropped it in the same direct as the TOW exe and it gives me the same above message.
This is very, very frustrating. I eagerly await any help you may provide and sincerely thank you in advance.
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Sneaksie, thank you, I will try that now and let you know how it works one way or the other. I appreciate your prompt response!
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I have played ToW since it was first released and I bought the Kalypso version. Yesterday my DVD cracked and could no longer be read. Wanting to play I purchased the download from Amazon.com ( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014A03CK/ref=s9_simh_gw_p63_d0_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1E868KW9B8T4FT8BR0Z6&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846 ).
I need the UBER patch but do not know where to get it. My version of the game downloaded from Amazon is: 1.2.0.42 . I verified on the Battlefront board that this version IS NOT the uber version of 1.10.0.81 . I no longer have the mission generator, nor the map editor, and as I said, Battlefront itself says that the version I have is outdated ( http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1199376 ) . I then downloaded the uber patch from GamersHell, installed it and am told I need a license key. I do not have a license when looking at my Amazon download games section.
I need to get this going so that I can add the JSH 1.3.5 and get back to playing.
Please help and thanks in advance.
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Hi eniced73,
Thank you so much for sending me the patch. I just received it in todays mail. I have not been able to use it as my PC was made in RAID 0 style and one bit the dust last week. I am changing that to RAID 1 and going to 1TB. It will be a bit before I get it shipped to me.
Oh well, just bad luck.As you know, I'm on dial up, won't that make it difficult to play multilayer? I'd love to do that if I could. I only get 28.8 when connected. I'm in the sticks.
I cannot thank you enough for your kindness I wish you would have provided me your return address so I could thank you more properly. All I can say is I am sincerely appreciative.
I won't be able to read any reply until my PC is fixed, I'm using my daughters to reply here so I could thank you.
Thanks,
James
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Thank you eniced73. I can't thank you enough, but I really do sincerely thank you.
I send my best wishes to you.
James
Oh well, just bad luck.
USA civil war
in Combat Mission Battle for Normandy
Posted
Childress, I have no argument with you point above as I have never made my argument with the morals of good and bad. With Jason it has been morals this and morals that. He can't have it both ways. You cannot sweep under the rug the immorality of one to suit the other. If he feels no guilt for the Native American "plight" it is irrelevant to his original moral argument. There is doubtless those who would say that thanks to slavery the African American is far better off here. You won't hear them argue that, however, true or not and it still would not change what they were forced to endure to get to this point.