michael kenny
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Posts posted by michael kenny
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period map marked with the route of the Poles.
It was mentioned earlier but the date is the 8th not the 7th
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period map marked with the route of the Poles.
It was mentioned earlier but the date is the 8th not the 7th
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Shipped to the UK. it was subject to firing trials before it was then used to test the trailer being developed to move the Tortoise (athough there is no record of any steel wheel models being in the UK)
Then it disappeared from the record and has never been seen since!
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This is an extract from the Book 'By Tank Into Normandy' by Stuart Hills, (page 107)
Stuart seved in the Nottinhgham Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (8th Armoured Brigade)
Meanwhile A Squadron had begun moving up from Fontenay, the
plan being that they would come through us and thrust towards Rauray.
John Semken was Squadron Leader and he had already heard from C
Squadron that there were tanks about, so his gun loader put an AP shell
up the spout, just in case. As they cleared Fontenay, they were suddenly
confronted by an enormous tank coming round the bend in front. It
was hard to khow who was more surprised, but John shrieked, 'Fire,
it's a Hun', and they loosed off about ten rounds into the smoke. As
this cleared away, it was observed that the crew were baling out as small
flames came from inside the tank. It was a Tiger of 12th SS Panzer, the
first Tiger to be captured in Normandy, and made an impressive sight at
close quarters as both its size and the thickness of its armour became
apparent. Although the range had been only sixty yards, not one Sher-
man shell had penetrated that armour. The fire in the Tiger, we discov-
ered, had instead been caused by a shot hitting the side of the driver's
observation visor and showering white-hot splinters into the tank. The
driver had screamed that he had been hit and the commander had oblig-
ingly ordered his crew out.
Then we have this:
Appendix 'E' to
21stArmy Group RAC
Liaison Letter No.2
Extract from a Report to HQ Second Army from Col.A.G.Cole, DD of A
(No. 20 WTSFF)
The extract is of tank actions near RUARAY between 27 Jun. and 1 Jul.
SHERMAN - 75 MM GUNS.
4. Lt. Fearn angaged a PANTHER side on with his 75mm and APC
It was moving about 12mph at 80 yds range and he brewed it up with
one hit through the vertical plate above the back bogie
He saw his Squadron Commander engage a Tiger ( previously
examined by us) on the road. At 120 yds the Tiger was head on.
The 75mm put 3 shots on it and the crew bailed out without firing.
He put in 3 more. The tank brewed up. Four shots had scooped on
front plates.One had taken a piece out of the lower edge of the mantlet
and gone into the tank through the roof,and one had ricocheted off the
track and up into the sponson.
At another Panther he fired 5 shots with HE. The enemy
made off without retaliation.
5. Sgt Dring started out south from FONTENOY LE PESNIL with
his 75mm and fell in with a MK IV which he shot through the drivors
visor. It brewed up and the crew baled out.
Next he fell in with a Tiger at 1000 yds. The Tiger fired whilst Dring
was traversing but missed. Dring then pumped 5 shots in without further
retaliation. The last one hit the drivers periscope and the crew baled out.
(this tank is believed to have been recovered for shipment to the UK.)
Next he came on a Panther at the cross roads, This he got with one shot
with APC in front of sprocket and the crew baled out. Hit at normal and at
about 500yds range. It brewed up
Next he took on a Tiger at 1400 yds just outside Rauray. He fired 6
shots of which 4 hit and the last one brewed it up. Tp. Cmdr. thought he had
missed it and only hit the wall behind. Sjt. Dring's next shot brought the
sparks and the remark "You don't see a brick wall spark like that".
This tank has been seen and is much shot up. It now has one scoop in front
vertical plate, five penetrations in rear, four strikes with no penetrations in rear,
plus a scoop and one plate of engine hatch smashed
Finaly to the east of RAURAY he took on a MK IV at 1200 yds, fired two
HE ranging round and then one AP through the tracks, which went in and
finished it.
Both refer to the Tiger shown in the previous post.
It is Tiger '114' from 1st kp.SS 101
This Tiger was first photographed on June 7th on its way to the front.
the next time we see it is in a film section at the location where it was left when the crew fled.
It was then test driven by the CO of Sherwood Rangers
before being sent to a collection point for enemy armour
Note how 8th Armoured brigade have applied their markings to the rear
Continued in the next post..........
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Here you go. The 10 line is the last vertical line on the left and the 55 horizontal line is the second from the top, 56 is the top one.Originally posted by Kingfish:At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556. I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain,
10(8)- 55(6)
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Here you go. The 10 line is the last vertical line on the left and the 55 horizontal line is the second from the top, 56 is the top one.Originally posted by Kingfish:At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556. I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain,
10(8)- 55(6)
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Here you go. The 10 line is the last vertical line on the left and the 55 horizontal line is the second from the top, 56 is the top one.Originally posted by Kingfish:At 1425 hrs, 2 Tk Regt was stopped in attack by twenty German tks, probably of German Tiger type and Mk IV, operating from area 108556. I do not know where area 108556 is, but am assuming this is between St. Aignan and St. Sylvain,
10(8)- 55(6)
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sPz.Jg.Abt 560 on 3/12/44 had 13 Jagdpanther and 31 Panzer IV/70(V)
27 Jagdpanthers in total(9 in the 519th, 5 in the 559th and 13 in the 560th), were available at the start of the offensive and only 5 were total losses up to 30/12/44. 4 of these were from '560' and the other from '559'.
16 were writtren off in January.
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Perrigault's book on 21st PD says Becker's Unit had 5 batteries and that a 6th was being formed when the invasion started.
27 June 1943 (I./2530/43) was issued to rebuild 21.PzD (except PzR 5 and PzJgAbt 39) using SB West as a core.
StuGAbt 200 (neu) with Stab, Reihenwerfer-zug (Sfl) (multiple mortars platoon) and four Stug-Btr - 4 x leFH 16 (Sfl) and 6 x sPak 40 (Sfl) each
Below:
10.5cm leFH16 (Sf) with 24 in Stug.Abt. 200
The above had a 7.5cm Pak model that was identical to the 10.5cm model (except for the gun of course!)
The detailed OOB of 21st PD in Perrigault gives a total of 24 10.5 cm and 17 Pak. 40 vehicles in Stug.Abt. 200
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It actualy is a rocket.Originally posted by Tank Killer:You can see the projectile in the far left.(The thing that looks like a rocket.)
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Absurd overstretch. Tiger could and did work with a number of other Units. By their nature they were always in the most critical areas. That is not disputed. The idea that they could be sent to replace a missing Panther or PzIV Regiment is the contention. You will find just as many instances of sSSPzAbt 102 fighting alongside 9th SS as you will 10th SS.Originally posted by Tux:If you disagree that Tigers ever worked with a Panzer Division which was one Batallion short because a Batallion had left the front to refit with Panthers..........
A Tiger Abteilung could be split up into company sized units (and smaller) and parceled out for particular tasks but it would not be sent to replace an organic Divisional asett.
Most German Divisions and Tiger Abteilung in Normandy were understrength anyway. Maybe it was a case of 10th SS being attached to sSS PzAbt 102 to augment its shortages?
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I am sure you realised what I was doing but just to clear it up I deliberately used a retort that was aimed at me in an earlier reply. No one seemed to think it was confrontational when aimed at me so I am sure it will not be seen as confrontational this time around.Originally posted by Tux:Well then if you read my post properly you'll find I haven't accused you of being confrontational at all (although the tone of that post could make me reconsider, lol):
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Twist it any way you feel best suits your prejudice. In simple terms I am saying a Tiger Abteilung was too useful to be parceled out to augment a weakened Panzer Division.Originally posted by Tux:If it did then I can only think that you are arguing that Tigers never 'replaced Panthers' because the Panthers in question had never been present as a part of the Division's force prior to the Tigers' assignment? In that case you definitely are being unnecessarily pedantic and confrontational...
Heaven forbid I should be confrontational. It seems that that right belongs to another poster in this thread.
Get a life
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The absolute last word on Jagdpanther allocations.
Taken from this thread
http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic.php?t=4081
where you will find many photos of the beast.
If your German is not up to it try Bablefish
Die folgenden Listen wurde unter nahezu ausschließlicher Verwendung von Aktenmaterial aus dem BA/MA Freiburg und dem NARA Washington neu zusammengestellt. Einige ergänzende Hinweise - meißt zu Teileinheiten - wurden aus publizierter Literatur entnommen, bereits publizierte Daten wurden verifiziert und ggf. korrigiert.
I. Zuweisung von Jagdpanthern von März 1944 bis April 1945
MÄRZ 1944
Mielau (WaAmt) = 2 ab H.Za. am 23. Mrz. 1944
APRIL 1944
Kummersdorf = 1 ab H.Za. am 1. Apr. 1944
Hillersleben = 1 ab H.Za. am 1. Apr. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 8 ab H.Za. am 28. Apr. 1944
MAI 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 = 5 ab H.Za. am 18. Mai 1944
JUNI 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 17 ab H.Za. am 14. Jun. 1944
JULI 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 1 ab H.Za. am 6. Jul. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 8 ab H.Za. am 31. Jul. 1944
AUGUST 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 8 ab H.Za. am 14. Aug. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 = 11 ab H.Za. am 24. Aug. 1944
SEPTEMBER 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 = 2 ab H.Za. am 3. Sep. 1944 (insgesamt 18 geliefert, 1 im Sept. wieder abgegeben an 560)
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519 = 5 ab H.Za. am 14. Sep. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519 = 4 ab H.Za. am 15. Sep. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519 = 3 ab H.Za. am 20. Sep. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519 = 3 ab H.Za. am 25. Sep. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519 = 2 ab H.Za. am 27. Sep. 1944
OKTOBER 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 = 4 ab H.Za. am 8. Okt. 1944 (im Sept. 1944 bereits 1 von 559 übernommen)
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 9 ab H.Za. am 13. Okt. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 7 ab H.Za. am 21. Okt. 1944
NOVEMBER 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 6 ab H.Za. am 13. Nov. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 = 4 ab H.Za. am 22. Nov. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 655 = 5 ab H.Za. am 24. Nov. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 = 1 ab H.Za. am 30. Nov. 1944
DEZEMBER 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 = 4 ab H.Za. am 6. Dez. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 = 8 ab H.Za. am 13. Dez. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519 = 4 ab H.Za. am 15. Dez. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 10 ab H.Za. am 20. Dez. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 10 ab H.Za. am 21. Dez. 1944
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 655 = 9 ab H.Za. am 24. Dez. 1944
JANUAR 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 = 2 ab H.Za. am 11. Jan. 1945
WaPrüf 6 = 1 ab H.Za. am 11. Jan. 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 563 = 5 ab H.Za. am 13. Jan. 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 616 = 5 ab H.Za. am 13. Jan. 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 = 6 ab H.Za. am 13. Jan. 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519 = 6 ab H.Za. am 14. Jan. 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 563 = 9 ab H.Za. am 15. Jan. 1945
Ersatzheer = 2 ab H.Za. am 15. Jan. 1945 (höchstwahrscheinlich an Pz.Jg.E.u.A.Abt. 20)
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 616 = 9 ab H.Za. am 16. Jan. 1945
I./Pz.Rgt. 29 = 14 ab H.Za. am 22. Jan. 1945 (Pz.Brig. 103 unterstellt, Restbestand später an 8. Pz.Div.)
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 10 ab H.Za. am 25. Jan. 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 = 10 ab H.Za. am 29. Jan. 1945
Pz.Stp. Mayen = 10 ab H.Za. am 29. Jan. 1945 (höchstwahrscheinlich von s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 übernommen)
FEBRUAR 1945
Pz.Lehr-Div. = 14 ab H.Za. am 10. Feb. 1945
4. Pz.Div. = 8 ab H.Za. am 14. Feb. 1945
2. SS-Pz.Div. = 10 ab H.Za. am 14. Feb. 1945
9. SS-Pz.Div. 10 ab H.Za. am 14. Feb. 1945
Fhr.Gren.Div. = 10 ab H.Za. am 15. Feb. 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654 = 6 ab H.Za. am 24. Feb. 1945
10. SS-Pz.Div. = 10 ab H.Za. am 28. Feb. 1945 (vgl. Anmerkung unten)
MÄRZ 1945
Nachsch. Ob. West = 5 ab H.Za. am 13. Mrz. 1945 (von s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 übernommen)
Nachsch. Ob. West = 15 ab H.Za. am 27. Mrz. 1945 (von 116. Pz.Div. übernommen)
25. Pz.Div. = 4 ab H.Za. am 30. Mrz. 1945
APRIL 1945
II./Pz.Lehr.Rgt. 130 = 35 ab H.Za. am 7. Apr. 1945 (getrennt von Pz.Lehr-Div. eingesetzt), ursprünglich für 559 und Unterstellung unter 2. Pz.Div. vorgesehen
SS-Kampfgruppe 'Wiking' = 7 am 8. Apr. 1945 direkt bei MHN Hannover übernommen
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 655 = 10 ab H.Za. am 8. Apr. 1945
Pz.Div. 'Clausewitz' = 5 ab H.Za. am 14. Apr. 1945
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 = 10 ab H.Za. am 17. Apr. 1945 (7. Pz.Div. unterstellt)
s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 = 9 ab H.Za. am 21. Apr. 1945 (7. Pz.Div. unterstellt)
Summe 419 Stück
Anmerkung zu den 10 Jagdpanthern für 10. SS-Pz.Div.:
Eine Zuweisung an diese Division taucht in den Listen des Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. nicht direkt auf. Vielmehr waren diese 10 Jagdpanther ursprünglich für die 7. Pz.Div. vorgesehen. Hinter der Lieferung findet sich der handschriftliche Vermerk 'Holstein'. Hieraus wurde bereits verschiedentlich auf eine Lieferung an die Pz.Div. 'Holstein' geschlossen. Dies ist nicht ganz korrekt. Eine Erklärung findet dieser Vermerk in dem Fernschreiben H.Gr. Weichsel/Ia BbNr 95/32/45 geh. v. 3.3.1945 in dem es dazu heißt:
"2.) Die durch Bahntransport zugeführten 10 Jagdpanther mit kompl. Besatzungen und 1 Offz. sind vorläufig ebenfalls der Div. "Holstein" zuzuteilen, jedoch nur so lange, bis die 10. SS-Div. "Frundsberg" eingetroffen ist. Nach Eintreffen von "Frundsberg" sind die Jagdpanther dieser Division zuzuteilen."
Da die 10. SS-Pz.Div. unmittelbar darauf eintraf, fand die Übernahme schon während der nächsten Tagen statt (genaues Datum fehlt mir noch) und das Thema "Holstein" hatte sich damit bereits schnell wieder erledigt.
Der im obigen Fernschreiben erwähnte Offizier stammte augenscheinlich vom Heer (auch die Besatzungen???). In einem Reisebericht eines Offz. des Gen.Insp.d.Pz.Tr. zur Heeresgruppe Weichsel vom 14.3.1945 findet man nämlich folgende Anmerkung:
"Die für die 7. Pz.Div. vorgesehenen 10 Jagdpanther sind in die Pz.Jg.Abt. der 10. SS-Pz.Div. "Frundsberg" eingegliedert und z.Zt. dem Pz.Rgt. taktisch unterstellt.
Führer dieser Jagdpanther: Lt. von Zitzewitz
Völlig ungeeignet (kriegsgerichtliches Verfahren beabsichtigt)."
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In Ergänzung zur Zuweisungsliste folgt jetzt noch eine Zusammenstellung aller mir bekannten Einheiten und Teileinheiten mit den Gesamtsummen der ihnen jeweils zugeteilten Jagdpanther:
II. Liste aller mit Jagdpanthern ausgestatteten Einheiten/Teileinheiten:
A) Heerestruppen (Pz.Jg.)
Stab u. 3./s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 519 (Soll = 3 + 14, insgesamt geliefert inkl. Nachschub 27 Stück)
Stab u. 1./s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559 (Soll = 3 + 14, insgesamt geliefert inkl. Nachschub 56 Stück, -1 wieder abgegeben an s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560) April 1945 auch einige Besatzungen 2. Kp. mit Jagdpanthern
1./s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 560 (Soll = 14, insgesamt geliefert inkl. Nachschub 25 Stück, +1 übernommen von s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 559)
1 Kp. der s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 563 [wahrscheinlich 1./563] (Soll = 14, insgesamt geliefert 14 Stück, Rest im Feb. 1945 an 3./616 abgegeben)
3./s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 616 (Soll = 14, insgesamt geliefert 14 Stück + X übernommen von 563 im Feb. 1945)
Stab, 1. - 3./s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654, dazu im Feb. 1945 als 4./654 die ehem. 1./s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 525 (Soll = 3 + 3x14, insgesamt geliefert inkl. Nachschub 100 - 110 Stück)
2./s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 655 (Soll = 14, insgesamt geliefert inkl. Nachschub 24 Stück)
Andere Verbände 1) Heer
1 Kp. I./Pz.Rgt. 9 (25. Pz.Div.) [wahrscheinlich 1./9] (insgesamt 4 Stück)
1. u. 4./Pz.Rgt. 10 (8. Pz.Div.) [keine direkte Zuweisung, mind. 6 Stück von I./Pz.Rgt. 29 (Pz.Brig. 103) übernommen und auf zwei Kpn. verteilt]
I./Pz.Rgt. 16 (116. Pz.Div.) [keine direkte Zuweisung aber 15 Stück 'Nachschub West' kurzfristig zugeteilt, Zuordnung zu Kp. im Einzelnen nicht bekannt]
1 Kp. der I./Pz.Rgt. 29 [insgesamt 14 Stück, Einsatz unter Stab Pz.Brig. 103, bei Auflösung der Brigade im März 1945 Abgabe Rest (mind. 6 Stück) an 8. Pz.Div.]
3./Pz.Rgt. 35 (4. Pz.Div.) (insgesamt 8 Stück)
3./Pz.Rgt. 101 => 3./Fhr.Pz.Rgt. 2 (Fhr.Gren.Div.) (insgesamt 10 Stück)
2./Pz.Lehr-Rgt. 130 [Einsatz mit Pz.Lehr-Div.] (insgesamt 14 Stück)
Stab II., 5. - 8./Pz.Lehr-Rgt. 130 [Einsatz in Nordwestdeutschland ausserhalb Pz.Lehr-Div.] (insgesamt 35 Stück)
4./Pz.Abt. 106 [Einsatz mit Pz.Div. Clausewitz] (insgesamt 5 Stück)
1 Zug der 2./s.Pz.Abt. 507 (insgesamt 3 Stück) [Anm.: Wann genau hier die Lieferung erfolgte ist unklar, sie taucht in den Zuweisungslisten jedenfalls nicht direkt auf]
2) Waffen-SS
8./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2 (2. SS-Pz.Div.) (insgesamt 10 Stück)
4./SS-Pz.Rgt. 9 (9. SS-Pz.Div.) (insgesamt 10 Stück)
SS-Pz.Jg.Abt. 10 (10. SS-Pz.Div.), Kp.Zuordnung unbekannt (insgesamt 10 Stück)
SS-Kampfgruppe 'Wiking' (Teile SS-Pz.Rgt. 5), getrennt von ihrer Division an der Westfront eingesetzt (insgesamt 7 Stück)
C) Sonstige, Ersatzheer, Heeres-Waffenamt
Pz.Stützpunkt Mayen (insgesamt 10 Stück) Verbleib nicht eindeutig belegt, wahrscheinlich aber an s.H.Pz.Jg.Abt. 654)
Ersatzheer (insgesamt 2 Stück) Höchstwahrscheinlich an Pz.Jg.E.u.A.Abt. 20, Einsatz mit 1./Pz.Ausb.(Einsatz-)Abt. 20 im Rahmen des Pz.Ausb.Verbandes GD in Nordwestdeutschland]
H.Waffenamt (Mielau 2, Kummersdorf 1, Hillersleben 1, WaPrüf 1)
Summe 419 Stück (2./507 und Austausch zwischen Einheiten nicht eingerechnet)
a mystery for completeness...........
Und ganz zum Schluss noch einen 'Exoten' der mir bis Heute Kopfzerbrechen bereitet und den ich euch auch nicht vorenthalten will:
In der letzten mir bekannten Kriegsgliederung der 3. Pz.Gren.Div. datiert vom 1.3.1945 steht neben dem Symbol für Stab Pz.Jg.Abt. 3 fein säuberlich geschrieben
"1 Jagdpanther 8,8 cm"
Weder im zugehörigen Zustandsbericht noch im beigefügten Waffen-Ist gibt es alledings den kleinsten weiteren Hinweis darauf, und auch sonst habe ich diesbezüglich nie irgendwo etwas gesehen. Möglicherweise nur ein Übertragungsfehler, aber wer weiß, wer weiß ....
In diesem Sinne, fröhliches Spekulieren
Martin Block
im März 2007
[ June 24, 2007, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: michael kenny ]
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And I gave you the benefit of my experience in this area. You are free to construe this any way you wish.Originally posted by Sirocco:As I read it the examples given were of units with absent Panther battalions, it wasn't a general statement.
You're coming across as a rutting stag in this thread. This should be about discussion, not dominance.
The 'Panther replacement' idea is simply wrong.
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When you lift a complete quote from a published work its best to at least acknowledge the source.Originally posted by JasonC:Then he pretends to object to a Zetterling quote being insufficiently respectful while studiously ignoring that he spoke of the 10SS substitution in exactly the same terms, so the silly person is attempting to correct Zetterling's usage.
The reason 'your' quote is the same as 'Zetterlings' quote is simple - they are not your words but Zetterlings.
Anyway it would not be the first time I have corrected Zetterling.
[ June 23, 2007, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: michael kenny ]
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Sorry but only one Unit (654) got a full complement of 45 vehicles. Due to production shortages no other unit got the full issue. A revised organisation of 1 company of Jagdpanthers and 2 of JgdPzIV/ Stugs was ordered by Hitler in September 1944.Originally posted by JasonC:Kingfish - relatively rare, most Jagdpanthers were organized into separate heavy panzerjaeger battalions, TOE strength 45 vehicles,
Nit pickers note that the issue of 45 Jagdpanthers to 654 was completed 14th October-15th November and thus after the change was promulgated
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For the East:
Feb 1945.
1/PzReg 29
2nd SS PD.
4th PD.
9th SS PD.
10th SS PD.
25th PD.
By March 1945:
PD Holstein.
10th SS PD.
9th SS PD.
Fuehrer Grenadier Div.
2nd SS PD.
sPzJg. 560.
8th PD.
25thPD.
4th PD.
sPzJg. 563.
A 10th April report lists 16 operational and 37 'in repair' Jagdpanthers in designated Units but a further 70 were milling about in transit or with other formations that picked them during April.
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No it is not. It contains a glaring error.Originally posted by JasonC:mk - that was a description of Panther types depicted in CM (note the "no 'early' comment), and is accurate.
Here it is again:
"The A model (no "early") on the other hand starts to show the late war Panther pattern. It has the Nahv. close defense system, as do all later models. It loses the side skirts...........
from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=79355Originally posted by Kingfish:How common would it have been to use Jagdpanthers to equip a division's Panzerjager battalion?
For the West:
JUNE 1944:
Schwere PJAbt. 654 with 8 units
JULY 1944:
Schwere PJAbt. 654 with 18 units
AUGUST 1944:
none
SEPTEMBER 1944:
Schwere PJAbt. 559 with 30 units
OCTOBER 1944:
Schwere PJAbt. 519 with 17 units
Schwere PJAbt. 560 with 4 units
NOVEMBER 1944:
Schwere PJAbt. 560 with 5 units
Schwere PJAbt. 654 with 38 units
Schwere PJAbt. 655 with 5 units
DECEMBER 1944:
Schwere PJAbt. 519 with 4 units
Schwere PJAbt. 560 with 4 units
Schwere PJAbt. 654 with 20 units
Schwere PJAbt. 655 with 9 units
JANUARY 1945:
Schwere PJAbt. 519 with 6 units
Schwere PJAbt. 559 with 6 units
Schwere PJAbt. 560 with 12 units
Schwere PJAbt. 655 with 10 units
FEBRUARY 1945:
Schwere PJAbt. 654 with 16 units
2./PR. 130 [Lehr PD] with 14 units
MARCH 1945:
2./schwere Pz.Abt. 507 with 3 units
Schwere PJAbt. 559 with 5 units
I./PR. 16 [116. PD] with 15 units
SS Kampfgruppe "Wiking" with 7 units [formed from personnel from SS PR. 5]
APRIL 1945:
Schwere PJAbt. 559 with 19 units
Schwere PJAbt. 655 with 10 units
II./PR. 130 [Lehr PD] with 35 units
If only you knew as much as you thought you did...........Originally posted by JasonC:he is just following me around looking for quibbles to enter, like a yapping little spaniel. It'd be cute if it weren't so pathetic.
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And what of the units who had full Panther compliments? They sometimes had Tiger Abteilung attached to them.Originally posted by Sirocco:If the unit was subordinated effectively in lieu of an absent Panther battalion it's a little pedantic to object to the use of the word "replacement", IMHO, if I understand this spat correctly.
The Tigers were Korps assets were moved around wherever they were most needed and never as 'replacements' for any equipment shortages in individual units.
Some posters seem to believe they are incapable of error and react badly when reproachedOriginally posted by the_enigma:lol what is it with you two guys?
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Thats how you thank me for not bothering to correct your earlier attempt to describe the history of the Panther.
I kept quite about errors like the one here:
Originally posted by JasonC:"The A model (no "early") on the other hand starts to show the late war Panther pattern. It has the Nahv. close defense system, as do all later models. It loses the side skirts...........
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As I said Tiger Abteilung (or parts thereof) were attached/served with a number of Units in Normandy(it was there purpose anyway)but they were never used as Panther replacements.
sSS PzAbt.101/102 and Heer 503 tended to get moved around a lot.
sPzAbt 501 in Russia likewise.
11/08/44 assigned to 16th PD.
01/09/44 assigned to XXXVIII Panzerkorps.
01/12/44 assigned to XXII Armeekorps.
21/12/44 assigned to XXIV Panzerkorps.
Direct quotes from Zetterling should be sourced.
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The Tiger Abteilung were never used as Panther replacements.Originally posted by JasonC:This was the expedient of using a corps level Tiger battalion in place of the missing Panther battalion, while the latter was away training. 102SS was used by 10SS in place of its missing Panther battalion in Normandy, for example. The 16th PD in August 1944 it famously had the first King Tigers subordinated.
sSS PzAbt.102 may have served in the same area or alongside 10th SS, it may have been subordinate to 10th SS but it was never as Panther replacements.
16th PD? Lehr got 5 Tiger II in January 1944 and as far as as I am aware this is the only instance of anyone other than the Heavy Abteilung getting TII's.
TII's were in action in Normandy from July onwards
Andere Verbände
Sequence of events during phase II of Op Totalize
in Combat Mission: Afrika Korps
Posted
period map marked with the route of the Poles.
It was mentioned earlier but the date is the 8th not the 7th