[City Fighting?]

"Thanks Leland. Is this new ASL module coming out through Hasbro? If so, when?"

MMP (which handles all things ASL for Hasbro

these days, just like they did for AH) says it's coming out for ASLOK, which I believe

is in October. The Tarawa module will be out

at the same time (hopefully, we'll have beach landings in CM's Pacific Theater module...). Ciao,

Renaud

[City Fighting?]

Any chance we could see some screenshots of

street fighting in the near future? I'd really like to know how CM handles all the congestion. I'm looking forward to being

able to simulate the Arnhem bridge campaign

under CM, and see how it compares to the upcoming (official) ASL module (A Bridge Too

Far). And, hopefully, next year, Read Barricades... Ciao,

Renaud

[Response to A Arabian]

"Just a quick note:

"Which "long history of popular open hostility"? I don't know of anything on the

scale of Germany or Russia."

If you mean open killings (the Soviet Union) or brutalization and loss of rights

(Nazi Germany pre-1941), you are correct."

Actually I meant the long tradition of antisemitism in Russia (pogroms) and

in Germany, dating back to the Middle-Ages.

"But just because you can't compare

France to these others doesn't mean that France comes up smelling like roses. I

don't mean to say that the majority of French were for giving the Jews a hard

time, but the large (and long) public support of the Right (which was openly

hostile to Jews) says a lot."

Well, the Far Right, certainly. I wouldn't say the Right in general.

"Also, it is interesting to note that (from what I

recall) the "Jewish World Conspiracy" notion came out of France. Wasn't this a

big part of the Dreyfus Affair? That some Jewish "syndicate" was responsible for

the whole thing?"

That was probably advanced by some Far Right group but I don't think it's

a mark of "long history of popular open hostility".

"In fact (again, memory hazy here) I am pretty sure that it was

French writings that served as the basis for Nazi ideology against the Jews as

Rosenberg was influenced by certain 19th century French "philosophers". Then

there were the openly anti-Semitic newspapers that predated the Dreyfus Affair

even, the Rothchilds' banking scandal (totally can't remember what that was

about), and probably many more things I know nothing about The upshot is that

there was a hotbed of hatred for Jews when Germany entered in 1940 to expand

upon. Germany didn't have to look far or hard for people to help with their

programs of persecution and murder."

I agree there was antisemitism but I wouldn't call it a "hotbed". The US

universities for example would discriminate against Jews but I wouldn't

say the US had a "long history of popular open hostility" to Jews.

"All in all, France (as with most countries) had a pretty poor record when it came

to Jews using late 20th century eyes. And because France was (and still is) a

highly educated and industrialized country, these things become somewhat more

complex. Again, I am not trying to say that France as a whole was the root of all

evil, but it certainly was no saint either. Poland and what was the Soviet Union

were even worse, though far less sophisticated about their hate."

Agreed. The Nazis got far too much help in the genocide in France, mostly

from petty bureaucrats and far-right politicians who grabbed power in 1940

after the defeat. Many common people also actively denounced their

neighbours for the smallest excuse. But the rate of survival of the Jews in

France is a testimony to the fact that many people also helped.

" Well, I must say this thread has drifted FAR off topic. I'll allow a response

from Renaud but then I am going to close it up. The only reason I haven't closed

this up sooner is that everybody has been so civil about several topics that

usually gets people acting like total hotheads."

Thanks! Maybe we can settle this on the battlefield of CM one of these

days Ciao,

Renaud

[This message has been edited by Renaud Dreyer (edited 07-01-99).]

[Response to A Arabian]

"Hi Renaud,

I am enjoying dusting off my prewar history, but we have largely strayed from my

original point about history being complex and I now have to get cracking on some

other things so this is probably it for me..."

I wouldn't want the release of CM to be delayed by one day because of

our littel discussion

" quote:

I'm sure the more than 100 Mexicans killed in the bombing of Vera

Cruz in 1914 would not agree... Wilson saw the war as a way of

opening foreign markets to American markets, even if it meant

violating the sovereignty of a foreign country,"

Once again, we see that history is not so easy to put a finger on. In terms of

Wilson's 14 points (er, that was the count right?) he was very much in the

idealism camp. The French and British used to laugh behind his back and even had

some really insulting nickname for him.

Whatever else happened, Wilson really did

want to have some sort of rule of law internationally (even if this was in

contradiction to other actions). The French and British only reluctantly set up

the League of Nations for example."

I think that Europeans tend to be much more opnely cynicals than Americans.

They view Wilson's "idealism" as mere posturing, which wasn't far from the

truth when you see how Wilson actually acted, as compared to what he say.

As for Wilson's 14 points, Clemenceau once joked that even God stopped at

10...

" quote:

Of course the Alsaciens themselves strongly disagreed with the

German view.

Really? At the time I thought it was more of an even toss up."

Not really. The French troops liberating Alsace in 1914 (and in 44-45) were

greeted by deliriously happy mobs.

" Well, from what I

remember pro-French historians paint this one way and pro-German another."

Interesting, I didn't even know there was an argument over this!

" quote:

Yes, but like Alsace, it had been stripped from Denmark by Prussia.

In a referendum, the locals voted in favor of joinign Denmark.

I don't necessarily doubt this, but I wonder if it would have been possible for

the vote to have gone in favor of Germany. I really have a hard time thinking

that it was a totally free and fair vote. In any case, Germany just lost the war

so it is not surprising that people might want to switch sides. Correct me if I

am wrong, but I do believe that Holstein is part of modern Germany now, right?"

I'm not sure, but I know that small parts of the region did join Germany

in that plebiscite. And other parts of Germany, in the east, did elect

to stay German in other referenda, as did the Saarland for example.

"

population. The Sudetenland was yet another cause for the Nazis to rally the Volk

behind (even if most of the charges against the Czech government were

exaggerated)."

It's interesting that most people imagine that fighting wars for

"humanitarian concerns", i.e. to protect minorities, is a recent

invention. Almost everyone of Hitler's invasions was supposed to be for the

sake of "protecting oppressed German minorities".

" quote:

More than 60% of French Jews survived the war, one of the highest

rates in occupied Europe. The same rate in Holland was close to 0%.

I don't know the figures, but percentages are not the same as numbers. Holland is

a very small country, which most likely contained a very small number of Jews

(both headcount and percentage wise). Therefore it would be much easier to get

nearly every one of them than in France."

I don't agree. Almost all of the Danish Jews were saved. Holland might

be small in size but it's very densely populated.

" Whatever the numbers, far too many

Frenchmen and women were very willing to give up, abuse, and deport Jews in large

quantities (note, the Dutch were too helpful as were most all countries...) BTW,

wasn't there a trial in France recently for some official that took part in

rounding up and deporting?"

Yes, Bousquet, a Vichy government official.

" In any case, every occupied country had far too many

local people willing to help get rid of Jews. France's rather long history of

popular open hostility towards Jews obviously made a bad situation worse."

Which "long history of popular open hostility"? I don't know of anything

on the scale of Germany or Russia. Even Dreyfus was rehbilitated. French

Jews were the first to be given full civic rights (during the French

revolution). If so many French Jews survived, despite Vichy collaboration,

it's because many ordinary people were willing to save their friends

and neighbours. Ciao,

Renaud

[Response to A Arabian]

" quote:

" Not true in my book. Sure there were self interest considerations, but Wilson was

one of the world's true idealists. From what I read about him he honestly thought

America was helping out good vs. bad. But once he saw what was really going on

within the side of "good", he didn't want to have any part of it. Much of this

feeling comes from my reading of Lloyd George's memoirs, so I put great credence

in this."

I'm sure the more than 100 Mexicans killed in the bombing of Vera Cruz in

1914 would not agree... Wilson saw the war as a way of opening foreign

markets to American markets, even if it meant violating the sovereingty of

a foreign country,

" fooling with danger. France simply turned a blind eye to this and just sent in

the troops when Germany couldn't pay up and put more arms and advisors into

Poland to make things worse."

What was so wrong about arming Poland to defend itself, after the Poles

had been oppressed, stateless, byt the Prussians and Russians, for years?

" side for evermore. Then of course they were stripped of Alsace and Lorraine.

Obviously the French thought of them as theirs, but so did the Germans and in

their eyes it was German territory lost (well, at least Alsace)."

Of course the Alsaciens themselves strongly disagreed with the German view.

" memory is hazy here, but Schleswig-Holstein also were removed and given to

Denmark?"

Yes, but like Alsace, it had been stripped from Denmark by Prussia. In a

refenrendum, the locals voted in favour of joinign Denmark.

" And then there was the butchering of Austria-Hungary..."

Was that really avoidable?

" quote:

Maurras and L'Action Francaise were never even close to taking over

the government.

Not from what I remember. They were about to seize the government offices from

two sides, but one of the forces (was it under Maurras himself?) chickened out

after a handful of police fired on his larger mob. From what I remember it was a

very close call and if the leader had been more brave the government would have

fallen. At the very least the Third Republic would have been ended."

Would you have a reference on this? From waht I read, these were simple

protests, nothing that really threatened the government.

" quote:

The "ease" of French collaboration doesn't differ much from the same

"ease" in other occupied territories. Just look at the Channel

Islands. As for being pro-Germans, the far-right collaborators were

actually extremely anti-German in the 30's. They saw the defeat as

an excuse for grabbing power.

Sorry, didn't mean to hold up France as an exception to the rule. Every occupied

nation aided the Germans in practically every way. However, France was one of the

worst, and probably the worst of the Western nations (well, toss up with Belgium

I suppose). In fact, the Germans themselves could not have been more pleased with

the ease of Jewish roundups in France. IIRC the Vichy government even exceeded

the German requests."

More than 60% of French Jews survived the war, one of the highest rates in

occupied Europe. The same rate in Holland was close to 0%.

" Things in France didn't start going sour for the Germans

until about 1943, three years after occupation. This was because a mix of bad

German policy and military reverses made it more clear that Germany was on the

way out."

Actually, more because the south of France was occupied then, and the

terrainthere was favorable to partisan warfare, unlike the north of France.

" As for the far right in the 1930s France... the more and more Germany modernized

and grew prosperous under Hitler, the more and more the far right looked to

Germany for political guidance, especially when it came to Jews"

Hmmm... That's not what I read but I don't have any references handy.

" (the far right in

France is still openly anti-Jewish from what I understand)."

I wouldn't say "openly" but yes, there are traces of anti-semitism (Le Pen

calling gaz chambers "a detail").

Ciao,

Renaud

[Response to A Arabian]

" I didn't want to stir up a hornets nest, but the fact is that no nation can

simply absolve itself so easily."

I apologize if I sounded like I was trying

to absolve France of its responsabilities for

World War I, but that wasn't my intent. Any nation acts purely out of self-interest and no ever acts for humanitarian reasons, despite what they might claim.

"Germans can, and did, lay the blame for the war of 1871 to previous attacks launched by France

against German territory in the wars of 1848 and before."

You mean the Napoleonic Wars of before 1815?

France was rather involved into a revolution

in 1848.

"And although Bismark

goaded France into attacking in 1871, it was France that attacked German

principalities, not the other way around."

France declared was because of the Depeche

d'Ems, I wasn't aware of any attacks by France on Prussia before Sedan, in 1870.

"And the French lost horribly and lost

some territory (which was the normal way wars ended in those days, BTW)."

And still now.

" As for WWI, there is a very strong case to suggest that France was the most

responsible party for getting the wider war started. I did a thesis on this, and

if I had to blame any one country for expanding the war beyond A-H's attack on

Serbia it would be France. This is long and complicated, but it boils down to

France convincing Russia, against the Tzar's better judgment, that they had to

attack A-H, which would bring in Germany, which would then give France and

Britain a chance to knock Germany out of its seat of power."

Russian had their own reasons to come to the

rescue of the Serbs and gain more influence in the Balkans.

" Germany for the most

part did not want a war, but once it found it inevitable it fought as hard as it

could."

Have you read the conditions that the Germans had prepared for ending the War in 1914, once they fought they'd won? It was a document prepared long in advance, that makes the Versailles Treaty look like an act of charity. Germany was going to annex all of the industrial north of France, reduce the rest of the country to an agricultural backwater and force it into an anti-British European Union that would basically be a German Europe. Germany wanted this war, was

prepared to fight it (the Schlieffen plan) and knew exactly what they wanted out of it.

The Kaiser was going to publicly announce those conditions but a little battle on the Marne changed his plans.

" The secret treaties between France, Britain, and Italy show that the war

was fought against Germany so that they could each get something they wanted

(Britain undisputed rule of the seas, France Alsace-Lorraine and REVENGE, Italy

the Southern Tyrol, and each to get bits and pieces of Germany's colonies). So

much for the Triple Entant being snow white."

Well, the Triple Entente was comprised of colonialist powers who were oppressing much

of the rest of the world among them so that's not too surprising.

" In fact, once Wilson found out about

all the dirty dealings, and the horrible clauses in the Treaty of Versailles, the

US refused to sign it."

Simply out of self-interest.

" After the war even the British seemed to realize it was a

mistake. France, OTH, wanted to twist the knife into the wound."

France was on the front-line, having gone through a horrible butchery they never wanted

to see happen again. England was safely

behind the Channel and the US behind the Atlantic.

" Again, this is

not a one sided blame trip here. There is plenty of blame to go around,

especially towards A-H, but the fact is that the war was more or less started by

all major European powers."

Agreed, of course.

" So blaming just Germany, stripping it of its military,

giving away large chunks of its land (yes, one can argue if it should have been

theirs, but the Allies didn't care one way or the other)"

The Dantzig corridor?

", making it pay huge sums

of money, giving up control of unquestionable German territory,"

What, apart from the Dantzig corridor?

" creating hostile

states in vulnerable spots, funding and training forces to raid Germany's borders

to grab more land, taking its colonies, keeping Austria separate no matter what

its people wanted, and crushing its national pride simply because it lost was not

only unjustified, but stupidly short sighted. It is almost as if the French sat

down with the British and tried to figure out just how badly they could humiliate

and piss off the German people. Not wise."

Maybe. But if French forces had intervened with Hitler militazized the Rhineland, the thousand year Reich wouldn't have lasted very long.

" As for the French not being Fascist, it didn't become so before the war because

of one man's blunder during and armed take over attempt of Paris and major cities

in 1934 by Action Frances."

Maurras and L'Action Francaise were never

even close to taking over the government.

" If this had happened, and no counter revolution

toppled them, Germany would not even had needed to invade France in 1940 because

they most likely would have been allied. The ease of French collaboration shows

how deeply pro-German, or at least pro-Fascist, many French were."

The "ease" of French collaboration doesn't

differ much from the same "ease" in other occupied territories. Just look at the

Channel Islands. As for being pro-Germans, the far-right collaborators were

actually ectremely anti-German in the 30's. They saw the defeat as an excuse for grabbing power.

" This itself is

a very complex issue.

Yes, history has no easy answers. When ever you wish to lay blame, you had better

first look to see what happened before. Very rarely will you find a clear cut

case of right and wrong."

I totally agree. In those cases my rule of thumb is to "follow the money". Countries

act out of greed, not lofty ideals. Ciao,

Renaud

[Response to A Arabian]

"I for one agree that the 3rd Reich largely came

about because of France's long term hatred and greed towards Germany. If France,

and Britain to a lesser extent, and not been so harmful to Germany's pride and

economy (not to mention territorial rights, especially in the East), Hitler might

not have been able to rise to power."

First, France might not have had this long-term hatred of Germany if Germany hadn't

taken Alsace and Lorraine from France in 1871. Getting those territories back became a rallying cry, but France didn't get a fascist government because of it. And, seeing what happened later, weren't

France's fears of a German resurgence very justified? As of greed, you might want to remember that the Western Front in WWI was almost exclusively fought on French soil, with an enormous amount of destruction. Ciao,

Renaud

[Paratroopers?]

I understand that paratroopers will not be

included but how about glider assaults? It would be nice to be able to recreate the assault on Pegasus Bridge for example, or

the attack on Eban Emmael, or the German attacks against the AA guns in Crete (these last 2 when the early war expansion comes out...). These kinds of actions would fit nicely with the scale of Combat Mission. Ciao,

Renaud Dreyer