Sgt. Beavis

It seems the fanatical behavior is quite common among platoon HQs. In QBs I see platoon HQs fighting to the last man fairly often. The...percentages, if you will, don't seem correct. The other aspect of my argument concerns the massive amounts of fire that can be directed against an enemy, and they refuse to go to ground. Fine, if they're fanatic that's possible...but they won't be fanatic for long, since they'll all end up getting shot by remaining exposed. Stalingrad involved city fighting...and lots of fanaticism and fighting to the last man. I agree... But this fight I'm describing doesn't involve good cover in a ruined city. It's 3 guys, by themselves, in a shallow foxhole under fire from close range by an entire platoon of infantry, backed up by 3 HMGs. How could they remain so aware of their surroundings when under that kind of fire that they pop up at just the right moment, fire, and stop the squad I had moving in on them? Seems a little too wacky for me to accept...

Nope, looks like he's going to keep his half-dozen complimentary posts to this thread - but he is indeed going to ignore the responses. You're good! :cool: </font>

And in any of these incidents, were there 3 guys, all by themselves? These guys weren't in trenches either, just shallow foxholes. Fanaticism happens...once in a while. In CM, platoon HQs quite regularly refuse to go to ground or be killed. I'm not imagining things when I say this, because I see it happen in the games I play. Another person has said they experienced the same thing. He also said that when he tried to post about it, a bunch of people would come into his threads and try to make excuses for crazy behavior... blah. How many threads and how many hundreds of posts were needed on these forums to correct the obviously flawed MG problems in CMBO? And even with that issue, there were tons of people who said something to the effect of "sure, it's quite realistic for a company of infantry to charge an MG bunker over open ground and take 3 casualties!" Makes me wonder why the British and Germans weren't so much more successful withh their WW1 attacks over no-mans' land. After all, MGs don't really cause casualties.... Anyway, I don't think it's realistic for 3 guys, by themselves, to not go to ground when facing such firepower. And if they don't, well, they'll be killed by remaining exposed. Ideally I could ignore them. But I needed the section of the map they were in. Before assaulting them, i put down what one would think to be an adequate, even very excessive, amount of supporting fire. Naturally, they didn't seem to be affected by this, being a platoon HQ, and required a mass assault to be destroyed after repulsing an earlier attempt.

OK, I can see this is going nowhere fast. HMG fire suppresses people. So does concentrated rifle fire. Why didn't these green HQ troops go to ground? If they were fanatic, how was it that none were hit by this gigantic volume of fire, all directed at one tiny spot on the map? Because some aspect relating to platoon HQs is flawed. Something funky is going on with them. JasonC : I wouldn't have assaulted them if I didn't have to. Those 3 supermen somehow weren't suppressed by the huge volume of firepower directed at them, from close range. Why didn't those green troops break and rout when under such intense pressure? If they were fanatic and firing back anyway, nicely exposed to my fire, how is it that none of them were hit during this whole time, and I had to physically close with them in order to get rid of them? If HMGs and concentrated rifle fire from close range can't suppress 3 man platoon HQs, or a single squad of infantry in CM, we should start including hover tanks and neutrino cannons. After all, from the way this QB was playing, and as I stated earlier... all the Soviets needed was a massive wave of platoon HQs, and they could have conquered the world. Forget the T-34s and SMG squads, we gotta bring up the dreaded platoon HQs! They can't be suppressed, wounded, or killed, and they always fight to the last man. [ August 31, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Sgt. Beavis ]

I don't mind portraying bravery, but even Audie wasn't bullet-proof

True, they are represented in the game as kneeling or standing, but they would really be firing prone. But I don't think it's realistic to say that 3 green troops would make any attempt at all to expose themselves to the fire of 3 HMGs, 3 LMGs, and...a bunch of riflemen. heh

Thanks for the support I think this aspect detracts from the game quite a bit; I hope Steve and the guys take a look at it. It sucks wasting huge volumes of limited ammo upon 3 (or 4...heh...the German HQs are also made of ironmen) guys that simply refuse to rout or die. And of course, when you assault them, they manage to cause a few casualties to your guys before giving up the ghost. Arggghhh!

Ok, there's some truth to what you say. But I still think what I observed in this game, and others, is unrealistic. Hang on The rifle platoon (full strength, no casualties at this point) was about 130 m from the enemy platoon HQ. The HQ was in a foxhole, green (as I later found out), composed of 3 guys, and they were firing at me. From 130 m, I'd see the muzzle flashes and know where they were. The MG teams I had firing at the same HQ, even though they were around 250 m away, had an observer guy with binoculars to direct fire...he'd be able to observe muzzle flashes as well. Anyway, the MGs are supposed to provide area suppression, not precision fire, which they could easily do at 250 m. The sheer volume of firepower being directed at that very small area, at 3 guys, would preclude exposing oneself to take shots. Particularly with green troops; they'd be busy soiling themselves and praying before thinking of firing back. Now I'm not saying that all that firepower should result in automatic death for the HQ. But they most certainly would go to ground, and not be firing back. Particularly for the 3 or 4 turns I was directing all that fire at them. Finally, when they do go to ground, and I send a portion of another platoon to advance on the foxhole, they pop back up, not minding the multiple MG fire and the fire of the entire other platoon from 130 m, shoot, kill two guys, and the rest of the squad runs away. That just isn't how things happened. Finally, like I said in the first post, I had to send in a massive assault wave to finish off these 3 supermen green troops. I had to go into their foxholes and cut their heads off to finally get them to stop firing at my guys. Of course, they killed one more of my guys hand-to-hand (they must have been trained in jujitsu as well) before finally being wiped out. God help me if they had been veterans; I would have needed tactical nuclear weapons to kill or rout them.

The platoon HQ was in a foxhole; I agree that being in a trench would have made it a bit easier to accept. The HMGs were about... 250 m from the HQ? I don't remember exactly. Not super-close, but not very far away either. I had them on a hill, 2 in a building...they had a clear line of sight to the enemy. My contention is that doing anything but peeing one's pants and lying at the bottom of one's foxhole when facing that volume of firepower would result in getting killed. Rather quickly. This HQ was green as well. I was facing green and conscript Soviets with (mostly) regular Germans. They didn't break, and they didn't get killed. They simply remained upright, returning fire. I can't accept that; if it was really that difficult to pin 3 guys, the Germans wouldn't have been able to conquer Denmark.

I do think it's a great game But this issue, which has existed since the first CM, is so very lame and frustrating. I think there is a weird issue with the code relating to platoon HQs that makes them "tougher" than regular infantry squads. However, I have also seen, less frequently, the same phenomenon with full rifle squads. I think that there might be a problem with the relations in the code between fanaticism and "kill" probability. Perhaps. I'm just guessing.

Unfortunately, no. I got frustrated, but I didn't think of posting until later that night. It happens enough, however, that I can try a few more battles and gather a few save game files. Pay attention next time you're doing an attack. Platoon HQs, 3 guys, are sometimes immune to everything you throw at them. You have to close assault them and cut their heads off in order to defeat them. Simple MG and rifle fire isn't enough. Argh

Ok... I was playing a game today, a QB. I was playing the Germans, attacking the AI Soviets. On the left side of the map, he had a group of infantry. One squad saw the firepower of a full rifle platoon and 3 HMG teams directed at them. And... They remained unsuppressed. Uh...what the hell? How could one remain above ground, returning fire, without being shot to death when there are 3 HMGs, 3 LMGs, and a bunch of rifles all being fired at one's location? I am glad that the game allows for fanaticism, but that was just plain retarded and unrealistic. I don't care how fanatic a group of soldiers are, their fanaticism won't stop bullets. They'll die just like anyone else once they are shot. Finally, after a couple turns of all this firepower being directed at the one (!) squad, I sent a squad from another platoon (which had been following the first that was laying down "suppressive" fire) advancing towards the enemy. Of course, the enemy unit popped right back up with my advancing squad about 50 m away, opened fire, killed 2 guys, and sent the rest routing. Naturally, the 3 MG42s and all the rest weren't quite enough to keep these guys pinned. At this point, I got pissed off and just had everyone on the left side of the map assault this one squad. I finally kill these supermen...and find out it was a platoon headquarters. Ok, that made me quit CM and I was even more annoyed. 3 guys. There were 3 guys, guys immune to rifle and MG bullets striking them in the face, who were nearly impossible to suppress, and somehow managed to stand up again, and fire, killing my advancing troops. Yea right. That's total BS. The second they stood up, they would have all died from the volume of firepower being directed at them. Not to mention the previous 3 or 4 turns they remained upright, happy as can be, returning fire at the platoon I had been using initially to prepare for the follow-ons to advance. And the 3 MG42s. I have seen this a number of times, and now I've really felt a need to post about it. A single superhuman squad or platoon leader, that simply will not go to ground, nor take any casualties even when facing down full platoons from close range along with HMGs providing fire support. From the way CM portrays things sometimes, the Russians only needed waves of platoon HQs at Bagration, and that's how they inflicted such a massive defeat on the Germans.

The new N35 chip is scheduled to be released around May 14, if I remember correctly. I've read that this one will correct some of the problems the FX 5800 ( I think that's the current high end card) has. Then again, a faster 9800 Pro with 256 (!) MB of memory is supposed to be relased this summer.

Hannibal Smith of the A-Team

Steve, Andreas.... Ok, I understand what you guys are saying CMBB is a great game, and missing a couple graphics models won't ruin the experience. I thought it would be nice to have all the models, but if that isn't feasible, I understand. There are sound reasons for not including all of them. I'll get the new patch when it's out, and I'll be looking forward to CM2. Others have said it before, but I haven't yet. It is nice to get a response from one of the creators of the game. I appreciate having your input Steve. And keep up the good work