Infantry AT in buildings

[RockinHarry]

Interesting discussion :cool:

I´d like to add that there´s indication, that Fausts were also launched from rooftops.

Excerpt from Steel Victory:

"And, on 17 April, tankers of the 756th rolled into the Nazi citadel of Nürnberg, and with the

doughs of the 3d Infantry Division for three days fought street to street against determined

resistance in the form of antitank, bazooka, and small-arms fire. The 191st Tank Battalion and

45th Infantry Division pushed in from the south. SS and mountain troops, backed by thirty-five

tanks brought from the Grafenwoehr Proving Grounds, defended the city. German snipers with

Panzerfausts picked off tanks from the rooftops, and it became standard practice for the tanks to

blast any building that even looked as if it might hide such a sniper. On 22 April, with victory

finally at hand, the 756th patrolled the streets of the city in a show of strength."

[womble]

I´d like to add that there´s indication, that Fausts were also launched from rooftops.

Have you actually seen a rooftop in CMBN that's accessible to infantry? I haven't.

[Boche]

Have you actually seen a rooftop in CMBN that's accessible to infantry? I haven't.

wow thats actually a good point, never thought about that one, guess we dont miss CMSF enough!

[Michael Emrys]

Have you actually seen a rooftop in CMBN that's accessible to infantry? I haven't.

The closest thing to that I've seen is a top floor with a gabled roof. That allows fire (though probably not by handheld AT weapons) from almost rooftop height.

Michael

[RockinHarry]

Have you actually seen a rooftop in CMBN that's accessible to infantry? I haven't.

Off course not. The anecdote posted above also does not tell if it was flat roofs (like in CMSF) or just the top of damaged buildings (blown off roofs of angled types), but serves as a hint that Fausts could be launched top down effectively.

As always....would be nice to have roof access in CMBN, as well as buildings that generally allow infantry AT to be used from within buildings.

Maybe allowing it with risk to shooter gets suppressed and maybe slightly (yellow) injured, also dependent upon unit density in the buildings AS (a small AT team, vs. full squad ect.) and condition of the building/story generally.

So far, blowing out any walls from a given building does not make a difference for overpressure/backblast FX in the game. This might be a rule to add.

[womble]

Off course not. The anecdote posted above also does not tell if it was flat roofs (like in CMSF) or just the top of damaged buildings (blown off roofs of angled types), but serves as a hint that Fausts could be launched top down effectively.

My point was that all the elevated building firing positions in CMBN are enclosed, because once the roof's blown in you can't get into the attic any more. It's the enclosure that's the stopper, not the shooting downhill.

[RockinHarry]

My point was that all the elevated building firing positions in CMBN are enclosed, because once the roof's blown in you can't get into the attic any more. It's the enclosure that's the stopper, not the shooting downhill.

correct. Anyway...why should make a damaged roof the story below inaccessible? :confused:

[Praetori]

Your statement seems to be founded on a misunderstanding of the urban environment you would find in Normandy and in most parts of Europe in the 1940s.

There rarely are long and uninterrupted ranges of houses to be found (some exceptions confirm the rule - e.g. centers of large cities) more often a few houses were clustered but interrupted by roads of different sizes and small gardens with walls of various size. In addition you would see corners and houses which are not aligned with the others and probably some damage done by artillery fire. So there would be already quite some potential cover available for ATG assets - but it won't be a kind of continous fight, but falling back from position to another position.

So it's up to the scenario designer to provide these details. In a well designed scenario infantry is not more on the losing end as it was in reality.

Some Pictures - look for Carentan

Now I'm with you on the Normandy housing in general (I've been in the area several times). But Caen, Bayeux and similar for example were entirely different beasts.

Or Arnhem in future Market Garden adaptations.

What I'm concerned about is the engine currently not handling or allowing it.

A few minutes setup option for the backblast AT weapons or similar would allow for more freedom, especially in multiplayer (or even better, point picks to turn a house into a strongpoint). Right now infantry in a house is of little concern to a tank which IMO feels a bit off.

The urban fighting mechanics are the most underdeveloped part of the CMx2 engine (not that it's all bad) but the odds are not really stacked in favor of the terrain"owner" as there's nothing special to be done even during setup.

Tanks can't "breach" a wall or be parked in a ruin, AT guns cant be rolled into any sort of cover provided by ruins or houses (where in reality hiding a 88 or SdKf in a barn or similar was far from uncommon practice).

There's a lot of difference between a normal house ad-hoc occupied and a house that's been prepared for defense. Sandbags, grenade netting, drainpipes for grenades, flammables removed, interior walls knocked down (for AT weapons, comms) etc. A lot of this could and should be abstracted but not to the point where it is today.

I'm hoping that things like this will be addressed for the eastern front game as Stalingrad or Rostov with the current mechanics would feel a bit cheap.

[RockinHarry]

Original german Panzerfaust manuals tell:

"At firing a fire ray comes out at the tubes end. Pay attention that nobody stands upto 10 m behind you . The fire ray should also leave as far as possible above the edge of your foxhole, otherwise you scorch your rock (uniform). If the tube end is within the foxhole, it´s generally enough to have 1 m distance to the rear FH/trench wall for your security.

The fire ray can be deadly up to 3 m if it meets a companion!"

Original german:

"Beim Abschuss tritt am Rohrende ein Feuerstrahl heraus. Paß also auf, das auf 10m niemand hinter dir steht. Der Feuerstrahl soll auch nach Möglichkeit über den Rand Deines Schützenloches weggehen, sonst sengst du dir den Rock an. Ist das Rohrende innerhalb des Deckungsloches, so genügt im allgemeinen 1m Abstand bis zur Grabenwand für deine Sicherheit.

Der Feuerstrahl kann bis auf 3m tödlich wirken, wenn er einen Kameraden trifft!"

Note: There´s not a single mentioning in any of original german manuals, that a Panzerfaust can not be fired from within a building/room.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/49973112/D-560-4-Pzf-100-m-Die-Panzerfaust-1-45

[RockinHarry]

Another interesting quote from Anthony Beevors "The Fall of Berlin":

"The Waffen SS did not believe in standing behind the makeshift barricades erected close to street corners. They knew that these not very effective obstacles would be the first thing to be blasted by gunfire. It was all right to put riflemen at windows of the upper floors or on roofs, because tanks could not elevate their guns enough. But with the panzerfaust, they made their ambushes from basements and cellar windows. This was because the panzerfaust was very hard to fire accurately from above. ..."

Note: There´s no such mentioned tank gun elevation limit in CMBN.

[Sgt Schultz]

I like the suggestion of giving shrek/zook/faust-equipped units a "deploy" timer and button for inside use.

This could abstract the clearing of minor debris and checking backblast areas for safety.

Since rooftops and rubbled upper stories are not available, tanks have unlimited elevation, and use from these points would be ahistorical... then it seems some sort of structure tweak may be in order.

I don't mind using the editor to work-around and fortify, but it would be a nice option to have.

-

Buying fortified buildings that can be placed and have ATGs or tanks placed in them would be cool, but seems unwieldy to code and balance.

[winkelried]

Note: There´s no such mentioned tank gun elevation limit in CMBN.

Didn't see this either - and neither a depression limit.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

It seems pretty clear to me that the evidence suggests that Panzerfausts (and possibly Panzerschrecks) should be able to be fired from inside a decent sized building but with the possibility that the firing unit and any other infantry on the same level in the building becomes supressed or even suffer a casualty. Not dissimilar to how it was done in CMx1.

Regards

KR

[GreenAsJade]

Yeah - could be for sure. Mind you, given choice, right now I'd love to have a "peek around the corner and shoot" order way ahead of "shoot from inside" ....

GaJ

[womble]

Note: There´s no such mentioned tank gun elevation limit in CMBN.

That's cos there isn't one. Another fudge to allow the AI a bit more freedom of expression.

[Bartokomus]

There's a lot of difference between a normal house ad-hoc occupied and a house that's been prepared for defense. Sandbags, grenade netting, drainpipes for grenades, flammables removed, interior walls knocked down (for AT weapons, comms) etc. A lot of this could and should be abstracted but not to the point where it is today.

I'm hoping that things like this will be addressed for the eastern front game as Stalingrad or Rostov with the current mechanics would feel a bit cheap.

This is exactly my concern as well; there are quite a few issues like this which i would like to see improved in CMBN, but without them the east front module won't be convincing.

[GreenAsJade]

Don't you think that Sgt Schultz designed fortified houses cut it?

Or is it the fact that these take laborious construction per house that is worrying you? I can see that this latter thing could be drama...

[womble]

Don't you think that Sgt Schultz designed fortified houses cut it?

Or is it the fact that these take laborious construction per house that is worrying you? I can see that this latter thing could be drama...

They're also not covered by FOW, so can easily be recognised and bypassed.

[Squatdog]

stikkypixie wrote:

Bingo! There's the crux of the argument distilled down right there.

Regards

KR

Stop confusing them with facts!

If it's in the game, that means it's REAL!

[sburke]

They're also not covered by FOW, so can easily be recognised and bypassed.

Not if you make it an objective.

[RockinHarry]

I´d conclude that single Panzerfaust teams (1-2 men) s/b allowed to shoot from buildings, but not larger teams or whole squads. Could possibly be combined with a slight suppression and yellow injured state chance.

I´ve yet to find evidences of common usage of Schrecks/Zooks to be fired from within buildings though.

[womble]

Not if you make it an objective.

AKA "Artillery magnet"

[sburke]

AKA "Artillery magnet"

Ha maybe being a magnet it'll increase my odds of hitting the dang thing.

[Sgt Schultz]

"Fortified" or "wall wrapped" buildings/rubble need to be placed in profusion, and also be part of the VL structure, to be of any real tactical use.

Low Bocage and Low Stone/Brick Walls will offer COVER for COWERING/PRONE soldiers as well as a concealment bonus. This means if your boys are hiding or cowering during a mortar barrage... it takes a direct hit to inflict casualties. Rubble is the big winner here.

Bocage and all High Walls include a ground floor LOS blockage as well as enhanced protection for the structure itself. Near-miss artillery has to tear down the wall before working on the structure(bocage not so much). Demo charges tear both down with one shot.

---------------

Until/unless AT teams can either fire from buildings or roofs, all these tweaks function to make rubble survivable for AT units, and believable to look at.

That's it. You fire from 'fortified' rubble in a CMBN 1.01 MOUT environment... or you turn some nice tactical tricks with smoke and other distractions, along with incredible timing.

Low walls work ... for a minute.

-----------------------

I agree AT teams should get some form of MOUT love, but not sure which would be easier to code.

1. Fire from inside with chance of suppresion and yellow wound. The more crowded the structure tile... the more it hurts everyone.

2. "Deploy" button for AT-capable units to clear currently-occupied structure tile. Let's say 60 seconds for giggles. Dollars to doughnuts this cannot be "remembered", so if you move you lose the cleared space.

3. Allow access to rubbled upper stories/flat rooftops for AT unit use

4. Any combination of the above.

Ohhhh PHillllll ..... Steeeevvve .....

where for art thouuu?

possible? probable? on the list?

beuhler?

beuhler?

---

[Kanonier Reichmann]

...BUMP... because I believe it deserves some BFC love.

Regards

KR