GreenAsJade Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I've read in a few places, and just recently experienced myself, tanks spotting inf with incredible ease. I know that anything is possible, and all that... my experience was probably explainable etc etc. Does anyone have any data? GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 No real data, but I have been very successful using Infantry AT weapons...unfortunately so have my opponents. One thing I do make an effort on is keeping enemy armor buttoned up if at all possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Ah well, good to know: I have been spectacularly unsuccessful, but if it can be done then I just need more practice 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Personally I have less concerns with armor vs infantry spotting chances, but more so with AFVs that broke into infantry positions and wreck havoc at point blank range. It´s particularly devastating in close quarters urban environments, where infantry AT can´t be used from within building positions. :mad: Can´t really judge IF "blind spots" on buttoned up armor is modelled in a realistic manner, but AFV do not appear to have blind spots for shooting/targeting purposes, as they can pump HE/MG fire straight down into a foxhole 1-2m away and then switch quickly to targets on upper stories of nearby (<10m) buildings, killing them in quick order. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 A few months back I ran some experiments for a specific situation for Battlefront with buttoned Sherman tanks spotting to their rear. It was hundreds of trials with slightly varying conditions. I found that under controlled conditions the Shermans had very little chance to spot infantry in a woods tile 25-50 meters to their rear. Don't read too much into that, as that's all I've got. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Terrain means a lot in this. Designers should be aware of the spotting properties of the terrain they use. VT Grass, Crops 2 and 4 are your pixeltruppens' friends for open terrain. Troops can disappear completely by dropping prone. How many troops are in this pic? I guarantee the tank doesn't know. Answer ... short platoon... and the schrek team just fired from a prone position. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Terrain means a lot in this. Designers should be aware of the spotting properties of the terrain they use. VT Grass, Crops 2 and 4 are your pixeltruppens' friends for open terrain. Troops can disappear completely by dropping prone. How many troops are in this pic? I guarantee the tank doesn't know. Answer ... short platoon... and the schrek team just fired from a prone position. Interesting...that the Schreck team is capable to do this....:eek: ....but it looks like the Shermans are silhouetted enough so at least the turret can catch a round from the prone Schreck team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Well, I had a miserable time in town just now. I thought I'd cleverly bring AT equipped troops to a town engagement where my oppo was likely to bring tanks. Sure enough, he brought only tanks, but they have had a lovely time cleaning up my inf all around town. You can't shoot AT weapons from in buildings, and as soon as you step out of a building.... boom, you're dead! I don't have a good clue how to do this right... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Well, I had a miserable time in town just now. I thought I'd cleverly bring AT equipped troops to a town engagement where my oppo was likely to bring tanks. Sure enough, he brought only tanks, but they have had a lovely time cleaning up my inf all around town. You can't shoot AT weapons from in buildings, and as soon as you step out of a building.... boom, you're dead! I don't have a good clue how to do this right... GaJ So far only leaving Inf AT guys outside buildings makes sense. Get them prone behind walls, in gardens, any covered place outside buildings that you can command streets from. Any other troops should stay prone and hidden in buildings, unless you find good opportunities to shoot at turret commanders with snipers or very small teams, but not a full squad. That´s vs armored forces only. Vs combined arms, avoid town edges. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbmtintin Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 So far only leaving Inf AT guys outside buildings makes sense. Get them prone behind walls, in gardens, any covered place outside buildings that you can command streets from. Any other troops should stay prone and hidden in buildings, unless you find good opportunities to shoot at turret commanders with snipers or very small teams, but not a full squad. That´s vs armored forces only. Vs combined arms, avoid town edges. Well-advised! "avoid town edges", in order to avoid fire from tanks I assume? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I don't have a good clue how to do this right... I think at it's heart it's largely a map problem. The possibility of firing an AT weapon from inside a building would help a lot - maybe as a special "Fortification" object (or was it really weaponized-cow rare?) - or more cover. Some of the maps show you the aftermath of beautification or rationalization project has removed all the clutter from the streets. Gone are the garden walls and greenery, cars or carts, fruit stands, trash bins etc. that an AT team might hide behind but still be able to get a shot from. (Or is that sort of thing abstracted into urban ground-types?) For now: Maybe require your opponent to get open-topped armor? You can use grenades from within buildings. Get Grenadiers. Doesn't help with map issues but you'll have a lot more AT weapons. Ask to be allowed an extra 150+mm battery. It'll make you feel a lot better even if it isn't all that effective against tanks. The biggie - Take the current state of the game into account when playing. Use what LOS blockers you can (which is often a whole building), try to get the AFVs buttoned, and Hide a lot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Well-advised! "avoid town edges", in order to avoid fire from tanks I assume? Actually from all overwhelming (support) fires aiming at the town edge. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 You can't shoot AT weapons from in buildings, and as soon as you step out of a building.... boom, you're dead! I don't have a good clue how to do this right...J What worked against me was a slow and careful surrounding of the tank. The guys ran between the buildings and hid inside. My tank crew's turret was swiveling a over. Once he had guys on three sides he attacked with a large team from one side and smaller teams. from the other two. I am sure he took lots of casualties but he kept the tank buttoned up and had guys on different levels of buildings keeping up some fire on the tank. The other time I lost a panther to close combat (yes I have lost two on the last two games I have played) it was to a flanking zook team. The panther was nose into the bocage nd preventing him from crossing the field. The stugiii on my left was hit a couple of times by a zook team and shaken up. The stugiii backed off and was engaged with other infantry when the zook team snuk forward and got a flank shot on the panther at close range. The crew took a casualty and bailed. The infantry that crossed the field in the next minute destroyed the tank with grenades and the crew eventualy surrendered. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 I think at it's heart it's largely a map problem. You're absolutely right. This was a QB map of a town. The problem is that the map has zero cover for infantry, and (most importantly) zero operable concealment for AT infantry. Buildings: not cover, as we know. The odd tree: hardly. So an attempt to play "inf vs tanks in town" on a map like this is futile: it's like running the guys around in plain open... In some ways, I think this is what the CMx1 "heavy buildings" abstracted. Although if you look at them as "models of buildings" they provide grossly too much cover, in fact I think that the overall result of them is to provide the right mix of cover and concealment on average, in something like a town map. This means that in CMx1 the designer can plonk down buildings in a way that looks like a town and it will behave like a town. In CMBN this is not the case. The map that I am using looks a lot like a town, but it doesn't play like one. In order for it to play like one the designer would have had to scatter walls and areas of bushes or ... something... to enable troops to sneak around, poke their heads around corners etc. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Interesting...that the Schreck team is capable to do this....:eek: ....but it looks like the Shermans are silhouetted enough so at least the turret can catch a round from the prone Schreck team. Firing prone is the way to go, if one can find concealment that the TacAI finds acceptable. NinjaGrass™ or as we call it VT Grass, Crop 4 and Crop 2 are the stuff of dreams for infantry. As you can see... firing prone leads to a nice flat trajectory. Resulting in ... Right in the lips! ---- GaJ .. my next battle will be a proper town fight with sadistic concealment options ... just for you. A real SPR German assault. I need to test to see if zooks can be fired from rubbled upper floors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Firing prone is the way to go, if one can find concealment that the TacAI finds acceptable. NinjaGrass™ or as we call it VT Grass, Crop 4 and Crop 2 are the stuff of dreams for infantry. As you can see... firing prone leads to a nice flat trajectory. ---- Interesting. I didn't realize that as I was working on my Hurtgen/Schmidt map. The recommendations I had gotten included using Crops 2 and 4 so it is in there quite extensively. The map is a bit large, but can be editted down to a usable size for anyone that wishes to do so and is posted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Personally I have less concerns with armor vs infantry spotting chances, but more so with AFVs that broke into infantry positions and wreck havoc at point blank range. It´s particularly devastating in close quarters urban environments, where infantry AT can´t be used from within building positions. :mad: Can´t really judge IF "blind spots" on buttoned up armor is modelled in a realistic manner, but AFV do not appear to have blind spots for shooting/targeting purposes, as they can pump HE/MG fire straight down into a foxhole 1-2m away and then switch quickly to targets on upper stories of nearby (<10m) buildings, killing them in quick order. Just today, I did a tank assault to finish taking the objective in a game. 6 tanks moved in on a shot up platoon that was guarding a cross roads, they were hiding in the grass and woods. Needless to say, I had a few tanks that was up close and personnal with the infantry. I had tanks run right over the enemy, of course it did nothing. in real life that would play different. So if by chance a tank machine guns a guy 2 yards away at a angle that is impossible, fine with me since I cannot run over him and do any harm. As for how well they see. I had a tank pass 5 or 6 guys that were pinned and did not see any of them. Other tanks were firing at them, but this tank had no clue. After passing them it stopped and gave them a great chance to take revenge. They only had grenades so I was lucky. just immobilized that tank. But it never did spot the infantry. I had to area fire another tank into the area to get rid of them guys. Since no one was spotting them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 You're absolutely right. This was a QB map of a town. The problem is that the map has zero cover for infantry, and (most importantly) zero operable concealment for AT infantry. Buildings: not cover, as we know. The odd tree: hardly. So an attempt to play "inf vs tanks in town" on a map like this is futile: it's like running the guys around in plain open... In some ways, I think this is what the CMx1 "heavy buildings" abstracted. Although if you look at them as "models of buildings" they provide grossly too much cover, in fact I think that the overall result of them is to provide the right mix of cover and concealment on average, in something like a town map. This means that in CMx1 the designer can plonk down buildings in a way that looks like a town and it will behave like a town. In CMBN this is not the case. The map that I am using looks a lot like a town, but it doesn't play like one. In order for it to play like one the designer would have had to scatter walls and areas of bushes or ... something... to enable troops to sneak around, poke their heads around corners etc. GaJ You know, you can learn to work the design program also. You are always suggesting how designers need to make maps and scoring and everything else you have commented on. So instead of expecting someone else to design battles that work perfectly to your likes. I would much more like to see you put some effort into trying it and produce some maps that we all could enjoy. I do agree with you that a good designed town would help solve some of your problems. But even in a town with a terrible layout for infantry out in the open, you need to deal with it. My only suggestions are these. When there is no good cover in town you have four options to look for... Try to find locations that you can set up these tank traps. First, street corners. You can always get the first shot on a tank coming around a corner, be located for a quick exit after that. Second, keyhole positions like small alleys where flanking shots are possible as tanks move down street. Third, trying to use buildings as cover and run out into the street from behind the tank. You can normally get one shot off before the turret pivots around. Forth. Distraction. Multiple units exposing themselves from different angles. You will want to time it so the tank focuses on another unit first before exposing your AT unit. I love running a unit across the street, watching the tank follow it, then run my AT unit out from the same location, now having a side or rear shot available to take on the turret. Of course none of these tactics work if your opponent has cover units or support infantry leading the way or on and on and on. But you look for options, make plans to try and achieve. You can never have success until you start learning to get the enemy in the situation you want, not the one that he wants. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Quick and dirty test. Trying to get balconies over neighboring building's rubbled floor, so AT teams will shoot from balcony and look like they are in building next door. Not looking good, but doesn't seem to matter. Infantry can close assault like ... well you judge for yourself .... roll tape ... Quiet street patrol Ambush! The Germans start playing skeeball with grenades and the Priest and the M8 takes one ... Ringer!! More to come .... --- 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Oh ... the humanity. See the red cross with NO ONE under it? He jumped out of the M8 as the Priest blew. Raise a glass to him and all the pieces of him we can't find. --- It doesn't all go the Germans' way ... Notice that while firing .. he is still running like a little girl... The M10 lost its commander early... then made rooster tails into the woods... ---- The Aftermath ... now THAT is a crater ... Germans got a single yellow wounded man when the Priest blew. I think it was elevation and modular building that saved them. No schrek rounds were launched. I shudder to think what would have happened if US troops had been on the street level near that Priest. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 You know, you can learn to work the design program also. You are always suggesting how designers need to make maps and scoring and everything else you have commented on. So instead of expecting someone else to design battles that work perfectly to your likes. I would much more like to see you put some effort into trying it and produce some maps that we all could enjoy. You would like to see me to do that eh? Would that be before, after, or at the same time as the work I'm doing on H2H Helper, The Combat Mission Mods Warehouse and The Band Of Brothers Statistics Database ? GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 You would like me to do that eh? Would that be before, after, or at the same time as the work I'm doing on H2H Helper, The Combat Mission Mods Warehouse and The Band Of Brothers Statistics Database ? GaJ LOL c'mon GAJ, you aren't still taking time to sleep are ya? Sheesh I have a LOT of sympathy for the guys who did the QB maps. I do enjoy creating them, but they take a lot of work and that's without having to do any AI plans or victory conditions etc. I am sure you will see more coming as other folks start taking a hand to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 LOL indeed. I'm happy to take suggestions about any of my creations. CMMODS: post suggestions/requests here H2H Helper: post suggestions/requests here Those who've done so will vouch that action follows quickly, if at all possible. By the same token, I think there's no reason why I shouldn't post suggestions to the guys who choose to devote their time to scenario design, while I devote my time support apps... I know that Sgt Schulz is listening, and I totally appreciate his work and the way he cares about the things that I, one of his users, care about. Yay Schulzy and youse other scenario designers out there! Thanks for caring... Oh - you can also critique my scenario design too, if you like. I don't have any CMBN scenarios yet - I feel like I need to learn to play it before doing scenarios - but I have a couple of CMBB scenarios at The Scenario Depot... GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Just today, I did a tank assault to finish taking the objective in a game. 6 tanks moved in on a shot up platoon that was guarding a cross roads, they were hiding in the grass and woods. Needless to say, I had a few tanks that was up close and personnal with the infantry. I had tanks run right over the enemy, of course it did nothing. in real life that would play different. So if by chance a tank machine guns a guy 2 yards away at a angle that is impossible, fine with me since I cannot run over him and do any harm. As for how well they see. I had a tank pass 5 or 6 guys that were pinned and did not see any of them. Other tanks were firing at them, but this tank had no clue. After passing them it stopped and gave them a great chance to take revenge. They only had grenades so I was lucky. just immobilized that tank. But it never did spot the infantry. I had to area fire another tank into the area to get rid of them guys. Since no one was spotting them. Good example for tanks vs infantry in terrain with lots of concealment, as opposed to my given example in urban environment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Oh ... the humanity. See the red cross with NO ONE under it? He jumped out of the M8 as the Priest blew. Raise a glass to him and all the pieces of him we can't find. --- It doesn't all go the Germans' way ... Notice that while firing .. he is still running like a little girl... The M10 lost its commander early... then made rooster tails into the woods... ---- The Aftermath ... now THAT is a crater ... Germans got a single yellow wounded man when the Priest blew. I think it was elevation and modular building that saved them. No schrek rounds were launched. I shudder to think what would have happened if US troops had been on the street level near that Priest. Nice, but quite unusual example with open topped vehicles moving into such a killing zone. Try again with a handful of Shermans and see what remains of the germans, once they start dropping grenades. Looks like the damaged buildings upper level would make for a good rooftop AT ambush position. Unfortunately they´re inaccessible to all troops. Fausts should be capable to be shot down although I could think balistically that wouldn´t be an easy shot. No idea about Schrecks/Zooks for this case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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