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UI Improvement: Minor, easy, helpful


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It would be wonderful if the state of the UI was clearer in two cases:

1) Am I in playback or orders?

2) Have I clicked "OK" on the save game dialog or not?

It is very very irritating to find that you click the red "done" button again after clicking it at the end of the reply, due to the lack of visible feedback that it was clicked the first time.

To a lesser extent, but the same with the save email dialog.

GaJ

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It would be wonderful if the state of the UI was clearer in two cases:

1) Am I in playback or orders?

2) Have I clicked "OK" on the save game dialog or not?

It is very very irritating to find that you click the red "done" button again after clicking it at the end of the reply, due to the lack of visible feedback that it was clicked the first time.

To a lesser extent, but the same with the save email dialog.

GaJ

I concur ... :)

I think it would be an easy design fix to change something to show the player definitively what mode he's in ... even an "Are you sure?" type statement ..

Regards,

Doug

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Yes, concur +1

Also, the whole orders interface needs to be redone. Consolidate the orders into less tabs and place certain orders on the correct screen. Someone did some nice mock-ups a while back that made a lot more sense than the current UI. I'll have to do a search to find them...

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Seriously? You guys can't tell this

xwtBd.jpg

From this?

zJmnS.jpg

Don't get me wrong, I have no inherent opposition to any improvements to the UI, heck Steve has already said himself he feels it needs it. I just don't see how you can improve on a clear statement that is right in your display and it worries me where the rest of the UI alteration is headed.

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I just don't see how you can improve on a clear statement that is right in your display and it worries me where the rest of the UI alteration is headed.

It's in white on light blue. And it ain't very big. Hardly conspicuous. The wordings of the statements may be clear, but they're almost designed to be inconspicuous, because they're in the field of play. A long way from the switch you're looking at when you click to go from replay to order-giving.

Having a switch (the red button) that gives no indication of what it will do, and which can do different things depending on current state of game is poor interface design and should be easily correctable.

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It's in white on light blue. And it ain't very big. Hardly conspicuous. The wordings of the statements may be clear, but they're almost designed to be inconspicuous, because they're in the field of play. A long way from the switch you're looking at when you click to go from replay to order-giving.

That is true and I agree, it is intended to be inconspicuous. Who wants a glaring flashing item on the screen when you are trying to figure out what just shot one of your men? However it takes a fraction of a second to look at the top of the screen and you don't even have to read it. The command phase only has one entry, the replay phase multiple lines.

Where I am headed with this is I worry that our requests for UI changes become too many based on trying to eliminate every little possible item as if we were editing a powerpoint presentation versus understanding every one of those items potentially affects code and therefore time. Is it really that hard to look at the top of the screen and tell, "hmm bunch of writing, I am in the replay phase". Is that worth trying to change in the UI? If so I suspect our requests will be so many and so trivial that BFC won't even have time to weed out what would really make a useful change that is more critical for players who feel they really need something.

I am probably not the best judge on this (ha okay I am definitely not) simply because for me the UI generally suffices, I am more worried about BFC having the time to address TacAI behavior in the code versus the UI. I would love to see more capability to area fire into locations than we have now. For example I know a tank is sitting on the other side of a hedgerow, but my gunner can't see him. Right now I can't tell him to just fire the damn thing at that area and hope the shell pierces the hedgerow and hits the enemy unit. Or ordering a unit to put suppressive fire on an area that just got smoked figuring if anything is coming through, I can hopefully pin them down.

I probably have a wish list as long as my arm and I know that it is highly unlikely I would ever get them all. My point here was simply I think we need to try and prioritize what is really important across the board to the extent we can rather than just provide a broad spectrum of wish items in no relation to how much effort they might require and what else we might have to give up. Changing the UI so I don't have to spend the half second to look at the top of my screen for me feels like a perfect case in point.

Granted it is just my humble subjective and probably flawed opinion, but the subject of just how we can try to prioritize what is important is I think worth some consideration.

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I agree with a lot of what you're saying, sburke. I would also love to see area fire improved, armor covered arcs, changes to AFV movement, etc. However, I think there's a perspective that you might be missing.

A lot of these UI issues cause fundamental problems with simply playing the game. YOU may not think they are problems, but many, many others do. For instance, I generally play CMBN with two guys from work via PBEM. All three of us *constantly* gripe about UI problems. Fixing the UI is the #1 priority for all of us (even more than fixing hunt/move to contact, which is a HUGE pet peeve of mine). A close friend of mine plays just about every PC game that comes to market. He's the biggest PC gamer I know, as well as being a WWII history buff and ex-military. He tried the demo and gave up on it. I went to his house, sat down with him, and guided him through how the game works (thankfully, I had enough experience with CMBN/CMBB that it was easy for me). He still couldn't get past the interface issues. He knew what he wanted to do, but simply got frustrated trying to figure out how to effectively do it. Another friend of mine was jazzed to try the game and gave the demo a shot when it came out. He gave up on it because it took too much time. Simply moving his units in the demo took so long that he determined he'd never have enough time to finish a game. My buddy from work introduced the game to his son, and his reaction was the same: It seems like it could be fun, but the controls are terrible and figuring out how to make guys do what you want is not intuitive enough.

These three guys aren't 14 year old twitch-fest FPS players. They're all between 30-40 years of age, historically inclined PC gamers. They should be right smack dab in the middle of the demographic that this game appeals to. But they ALL gave up on the game because the UI is...well...horrible.

All of the improvements that we want to see take time and manpower. But if BFC can't get people to buy their game they'll never be able to afford the cost/manpower to actually implement those changes. Steve has said that Battlefront has experienced brisk sales of CMBN and that they don't need to market to the general population, but surely the guys I've described here are people they would want for customers. It generates income for them, it generates opponents for me, and the whole community is better off for it. I don't think you can say the same about under the hood changes like area targeting.

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Seriously? You guys can't tell this From this?

Don't get me wrong, I have no inherent opposition to any improvements to the UI, heck Steve has already said himself he feels it needs it. I just don't see how you can improve on a clear statement that is right in your display and it worries me where the rest of the UI alteration is headed.

The problem is that those words are in the wrong place, nobody looks at the top of the screen when they want to pause the action, the are looking down at the interface. The words "COMMAND" or "REPLAY" should be next to or on the actual RED button. In fact, the button should alternate colors along with the text. That is how you make a UI more friendly and it's a simple coding issue that any experience coder can do in minutes.

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The problem is that those words are in the wrong place, nobody looks at the top of the screen when they want to pause the action, the are looking down at the interface. The words "COMMAND" or "REPLAY" should be next to or on the actual RED button. In fact, the button should alternate colors along with the text. That is how you make a UI more friendly and it's a simple coding issue that any experience coder can do in minutes.

But if you are looking to pause the action, wouldn't you by definition know you are in replay mode? I don't want to beat this to death, all I am saying is to focus on what is really important to change. For example ClarkWGriswold was referring to how difficult some folks are finding the UI. Is this one of those issues or is this one that may be annoying but not really game play affecting per se? All I am suggesting is to not let everything become equal. What are the real difficult game play/control affecting concerns and what are more display format issues?

Not being a programmer, I have no idea how simple or not it is to code that into the UI. Could be you are absolutely right and even that BFC already has that in mind. I have to admit I have a hard time with this one simply because you don't even have to move your head to look at that text area and while inconspicuous, it isn't invisible nor particularly difficult to see. I feel like the people in that movie Wall-E riding around on couches. I realize that is overly dramatic, but to ask someone to program something so I don't have to move an eyeball...

However I have probably taken up way too much of everyone's time on this. If it gets changed it isn't like I would object. It just seems to me we are kind of all over the map on the UI and I for one don't really have a good perspective on what all folks really find difficult, what should be changed, how much it takes to make that change, when would we likely see a change (another module or another game family) etc etc

On the other hand if you are a coder and this is simple it probably drives you nuts every time you execute a turn. I'll shut up now. At least for a bit anyway.

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But if you are looking to pause the action, wouldn't you by definition know you are in replay mode?

Sorry, let me clarify the issue. The problem arises when the player thinks he's still in replay mode but has actually already pressed the red button once, then accidentally press it again in haste.

Is this one of those issues or is this one that may be annoying but not really game play affecting per se? All I am suggesting is to not let everything become equal. What are the real difficult game play/control affecting concerns and what are more display format issues?

This is certainly affecting game play. I've lost many turns doing this and I've seen lots of other posts complaining about it. Honestly, what I'm suggesting is a simple fix to a nagging UI problem.

I have to admit I have a hard time with this one simply because you don't even have to move your head to look at that text area and while inconspicuous, it isn't invisible nor particularly difficult to see.

It's not a question of laziness or incompetence. It an issue of designing the most user friendly interface that you can so that people can enjoy your product better and don't get frustrated. And quite frankly, it's just plain common sense.

If you have a big red button that is meant to launch nukes at Russia, you don't put the label "START WW III" on the other side of the control panel, you put it next the the big red button.

It just seems to me we are kind of all over the map on the UI and I for one don't really have a good perspective on what all folks really find difficult, what should be changed, how much it takes to make that change, when would we likely see a change (another module or another game family) etc etc

Really? Nothing nags you about the UI?

When plotting waypoints you don't find it inconvenient to have to switch tabs to plot a face order or a hide? Pause, Hide, Dismount, Face can all be on the Movement tab since that's what they affect. The split teams icons can then be moved to the "Special" tab - Bam, one tab eliminated. Cleaner interface with icons where they're supposed to be.

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If you have a big red button that is meant to launch nukes at Russia, you don't put the label "START WW III" on the other side of the control panel, you put it next the the big red button.

LOL I JUST saw that in some movie or skit, damned if I can remember what it was though. They had a coffee machine button and a nuke button side by side.

Really? Nothing nags you about the UI?

When plotting waypoints you don't find it inconvenient to have to switch tabs to plot a face order or a hide? Pause, Hide, Dismount, Face can all be on the Movement tab since that's what they affect. The split teams icons can then be moved to the "Special" tab - Bam, one tab eliminated. Cleaner interface with icons where they're supposed to be.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that, it's just I can live with some of these annoyances and would prefer programming time go into other aspects. The specific item on the mode and hitting the button hasn't impacted me. By the time I realize I'd forgotten a move I'd wanted to do it is much later and not an issue of the button or even a cancel option.

The UI hasn't deterred me from doing anything especially as I have gotten more used to it. That doesn't mean I don't agree with you that reorganizing the tabs would be beneficial. What is more problematic for me is not being able to do somethings regardless of the UI. Trying to figure out why I have LOS and not LOF on occasion, trying to judge LOF when there is no real interface to do so. I can't just zoom the camera on a large map or move in line of axis as my height level will shift anyway on the map. I'm in a battle now where this is really a major issue. Even if I move a unit to a location, I can't be sure if it is in cover or not by doing LOS checks. I am checking ground spots, not whether a tank that pulls up there is gonna have a shot. Bunkers I can't exit in PBEM.... those are the kinds of things I would prefer BFC spend time on, however I totally get that for some people you never get to worry about those items if the UI presents too much of a hassle.

Would I mind some adjustments to the UI, not at all. It's just I have put in the time to learn it and am more focused on actual gameplay now. I think that is kind of where I start. I figure BFC has very limited resources and I tend to look at it from the perspective - I'd rather things be made to work better than easier if that makes sense?

To be clear I am by no means suggesting it couldn't use some work or that there haven't been some great ideas floated on how to make it more informational and easier to digest. I am just a bit wary of getting too caught up in it and the cost to us of other issues getting focus or new material getting released.

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By the time I realize I'd forgotten a move I'd wanted to do it is much later and not an issue of the button or even a cancel option.

for me, it's not a matter of forgetting "a move", when I accidentally hit the red button when I didn't mean to. It's because I finished rewatching the turn for the nth time, hit 'go to order phase', futz around with the same unit, looking at LOS or something, and then hit 'go to order phase' again, because I forgot quite where I was in the sequence of things. Once I start issuing orders, I know where I am. It's that woolly bit where I'm making the transition.

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You know I am sitting here looking at the various responses and the other UI thread and I suspect I am actually just looking at this wrong. Steve has already said previously that he really would like to revisit the UI and if anything this is exactly the time to provide feedback and ideas on what could use improvement.

Yeah I know, a complete 180, and no it isn't cause I forgot to take my meds. It just occurred to me that rather than be looking for changes once it is done which would require more programming time, suggestions now could potentially save programming time or possibly streamline the interface to make other aspects easier.

Okay consider me won over.

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I think the problem is that there is no "Confirm" screen after hitting the red button.

After about 4 beers and 3 hours of playing CM ... it's pretty easy to hit the "Red" button instead of the "Play" button. .... And once you hit the Red button, there's no going back!!

It would be nice if a Confirmation dialog popped up that confirms you want to exit the Replay mode and go to the next turn.

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The problem is that those words are in the wrong place, nobody looks at the top of the screen when they want to pause the action, the are looking down at the interface. The words "COMMAND" or "REPLAY" should be next to or on the actual RED button. In fact, the button should alternate colors along with the text. That is how you make a UI more friendly and it's a simple coding issue that any experience coder can do in minutes.

I didn't read the rest of the thread past this, because this nails it.

I was astonished to see the "counter arguments", but maybe we're all just bored and looking for something to argue about.

When you are clicking the red button, you're not looking at the top of the screen. That is the gameplay area. The text in there is rightly inconspicuous.

In contrast, the mode of the control panel ought to be absolutely clear. Call me stoopid, I don't care: from time to time I inadvertently hit the red button twice, because I got no visual feedback that I hit it successfully the first time.

This is so trivial to fix, it hardly bears discussion.

GaJ

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You know I am sitting here looking at the various responses and the other UI thread and I suspect I am actually just looking at this wrong. Steve has already said previously that he really would like to revisit the UI and if anything this is exactly the time to provide feedback and ideas on what could use improvement.

Yeah I know, a complete 180, and no it isn't cause I forgot to take my meds. It just occurred to me that rather than be looking for changes once it is done which would require more programming time, suggestions now could potentially save programming time or possibly streamline the interface to make other aspects easier.

Okay consider me won over.

you have been assimilated. :P

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It would be nice if a Confirmation dialog popped up that confirms you want to exit the Replay mode and go to the next turn.

I made a post in the tech support subforum asking for this exact thing. It's SO easy to accidentally click the red button and once you do there is NO way to back out of it. Your only choice is "OK". Not even a Cancel option. And you don't even have to absent mindedly click. I accidentally hit the red button once because my mouse cursor ended up down there as I was clicking and dragging to move the camera (another peeve of mine). It's no fun to have to reload your PBEM and replot ALL of your moves from scratch because you accidentally clicked one button. Doing it in single player is even worse, because there's no way to reload the turn and do it over!

I honestly have no idea how this kind of UI implementation has remained in the game this long. I mean, CMSF has been out for, what, 5 years? You'd think a solution would have been implemented by now. Why show the VCR controls at all once the replay phase is over? They buttons are non-functional, so just remove the whole thing. Make the button green during the replay phase and red during the command phase and throw a Cancel option in there after the red button has been hit. Problem solved.

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It would be wonderful if the state of the UI was clearer in two cases:

1) Am I in playback or orders?

2) Have I clicked "OK" on the save game dialog or not?

It is very very irritating to find that you click the red "done" button again after clicking it at the end of the reply, due to the lack of visible feedback that it was clicked the first time.

To a lesser extent, but the same with the save email dialog.

GaJ

I cannot count the number of times I've hit the "go" button erroneously, thinking I was going from replay to command phase. Instead, I send myself from command phase to fubar phase.

This is a bad interfave issue.

sburke, c'mon man. Are you serious? My focus during replay is on the center of the screen. Are there little white letters up top? Sure. Oh, wait; if it's command phase, are there little white letters up top? Sure. Oh, wait; relying on reading the header is a poor interface design, isn't it?

Two functions: "Exit replay phase" and "execute commands" use the same interface, a red button, in the same location. That's bad. In a perfect world, "exit replay phase" would be located anywhere other than the bottom right hand corner of the screen. It would also have a shape other than a square. Finally, it would not be colored red.

Again, I cannot count how many times I've hit the "go" button erroneously. I've been around here awhile. That may be part of the problem: my muscle memory may be overriding the need to think about the button pressing. It certainly is overriding a study of whatever the little white letters up at the top of the screen say.

I'd love for this to be changed.

Ken

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What I'd like to see is a three-position rotating switch bottom left that has:

* Replay

* Orders

* Go

If I rock it back from orders to replay, it remembers the orders I've already issued and flips back to the replay phase with the same view position/orientation/focus that I had when I flipped, maybe. And would let me go back to order-giving by 'turning the knob' again to 'orders'. Initiating turn calculation/compile-for-send would be a one time thing, of course, but it'd be obvious.

If I can't have that, I'd like a phase change button that clearly indicates what it'll do when I press it.

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