Looking for creative advice on a new very large map

[sburke]

Am in the midst of my own first attempt at a map and am probably being overly ambitious, however would like some advice from those with some time in with the editor and translating images into the CM world.

I am converting a map from the old Gamers TCS series game Objective Schmidt. I have had to make some adjustments as the map itself is twice the size of what can be created. I decided to borrow an idea once used for a map created for CMAK I think of Clerveaux where they simply altered the scale. I dropped the overall map scale in half and did the same for the elevations. I think I have ended up with a plausible map. I put in all the elevation lines and may edit them a bit later to stop making actual contour lines and allow the engine to provide a more natural flow where desired, but for the sake of getting the roads, forests etc in it helps to have the actual contours in at a high level view.

I have had to adjust for how water is programmed in CM, the Kall river drops some 40' over the course of the map, with the elevation line changes that comes to about 20', still 2 contour levels. While manageable, it does mean having to alter the map. I also had to convert the tributaries to marsh tiles, but again still manageable.

Where I need advice is three items. If you look at the googled maps, the fields can be clearly seen, however it is late fall. A distinctly different period for cropland than August. Perhaps this project would be better completed in the Bulge game when released, but I am open to any and all suggestions about trying to get the feel right for the terrain if folks think it is possible in CMBN.

Second item is firebreaks. The game map itself only shows roads and the Kall trail itself. In the aerial shots however you can distinctly see the firebreaks. If anyone is familiar with this area or anything like it, what would you suggest as the best way to duplicate these? I expect they played a focal role in the fighting within the forest, but am not sure how to recreate them to try and drive that effect in CM.

Last item - Just north of here is the Bergstein ridge, which the Germans used to keep Vossenack and Kommerscheidt under artillery observation. I could simply place Cathedral towers on the border to simulate the OP capabilites but was wondering if anyone else has considered this when you have no way to really duplicate this within the map. I know Broadsword typically would include additional parts of the master map that had observation sights, but 1 those are still within the map and 2 they are literally individual steeples whereas this was a whole ridge at higher elevation. The TCS game rules just simply had any US unit within a certain portion of the map as automatically being spotted barring smoke or poor visibility.

FYI if anyone wants to use this map go right ahead and don't credit me - I am more than happy to let someone else take the blame for any deficiencies in the map as well as the belly aching we will hear when folks realize the casualty rates in Normandy are just the beginning. There is a reason the 28th got nicknamed the "Bloody Bucket".

Below are links to the map as well as material I am using for it's creation.

CM Map

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30964082/Objective%20Schmidt.btt

Googled pics from Vossenack - I believe most of these come from the Green Book series

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30964082/Green%20Book%20pics.rar

Obj Schmidt player aid map (Available free with Vassal mod if you want to be able to blow up the image)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30964082/Obj%20Schmidt%20Map.rar

Rules and player aids for those interested in the idea of using this for an Operational layer for a campaign.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/30964082/Obj%20Schmidt%20rules.rar

[MikeyD]

A word of caution on very large very ambitious maps. Just to be safe you might want to drop some troops onto the map and give it a test spin as a scenario to see how the framerate does. It might work perfectly fine, or you might want to consider thinning out excess trees in unused corners of the map or reduce the number/types of houses, or chop off a couple hundred meters from one side or another. Not to say you'll have to. Just a reminder to test & adjust if necessary.

[sburke]

A word of caution on very large very ambitious maps. Just to be safe you might want to drop some troops onto the map and give it a test spin as a scenario to see how the framerate does. It might work perfectly fine, or you might want to consider thinning out excess trees in unused corners of the map or reduce the number/types of houses, or chop off a couple hundred meters from one side or another. Not to say you'll have to. Just a reminder to test & adjust if necessary.

I did an initial test to see about the issue of map size earlier when Broadsword and I were having problems. I ran 4 battalions across this, however at that time I had no trees etc. As it stands I don't really know yet how the map itself will be used. The TCS game had scenarios for phases of the campaign that used portions of the map. For a campaign game they present nice options and a framework. That being said I will start running those tests when I see the map itself come together to a point I would actually considering using it. I still have a long way to go.

Considering the time frame (the period reflected on the map covered 4 days) fighting on the whole map just isn't feasible from a CMBN game time frame and map size. I simply am following LLF and Broadsword's theory that it is easier to cut up a large map rather than try to make separate maps that then don't align right or follow the same flow. It also allows anyone interested in using the TCS player aids as an operational layer if they desire to create a campaign game. I think the TCS series being a regimental scale game lends itself to an easier to run multi player campaign game than divisonal or greater scale games like Normandy 44. Their organization of planning forms can also be used to create a fog of war for players on the same side. You know what you think your fellow company/battalion commanders are supposed to be doing, but not necessarily what they think they are supposed to be doing. Even if you use the same btt file and are passing it around seeing their units doesn't allow you to know what command orders they are following. Unfortunately the gamers only created one game within the time frame of CMBN (Omaha) and that is an even larger map.

Good advice though as I have already seen what happens if one doesn't take that into account---crashed games.

[sburke]

Incidentally for folks like Mr Emerys who I think has stated a preference I believe for playing solitaire HTH games, using the format of the TCS game rules and planning maps may add a layer to your own games to enhance the solitaire playability. It is something I want to experiment with in developing an AAR to both create a story of sorts as well as demonstrate the depth you can create for yourself using CMBN. Playing against the AI has it's own limitations, whilst playing solitaire HTH can lose that FOW aspect and unexpected developments.

This seems like it might create a more solid framework for solitaire play or even a more complicated two player PBEM game.

More to come if folks are interested in hearing an AAR of the travails of 112th Infantry Regiment on the Kall river as well as the 275th and 89th Infantry divisons and one of my favorite German units, the 116th Panzer Division.

[Sgt Schultz]

First of all ... wow. Excellent work. It will be a comp-breaker with troops and calculations running, but my comp would gladly risk its life for this one.

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Seasonal issues -

To mimic late Fall, you think of cut fields, and bare deciduous trees. A drier, less-green time.

You have the tree area covered by use of evergreens(the "B" isn't technically an evergreen, but it works as a young evergreen for me).

To get the fields/bushes/bocage 'just' right means waiting for the Module or having a kind soul mod one/some of the terrain tiles just for use with this map/scenario.. and then using that terrain in appropriate areas.

To work around now... I would experiment with an initial 'brush' underlay painting, and then overlay with 'Plowed' for some fields. Winter wheat is still tall and strong, so Crops "2" and "4" are still viable and of the proper Fall colors.

'Grass Y'(yellow) and 'TY' in larger areas and along naturally shady places near forests may give an Autumnal feel.

I would likely shy away from all the bushes, especially the bright green holly-like 'B' Bush.

Hedges can be holly, so have at it.

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Firebreaks -

Dirt, Dirt Red, Hard, Rocky, Rocky Red. Dirt Road for some curves where appropriate. Carve away with these while placing locked elevations directly under. Forest on either side with paired tree on any Dirt Road tiles. This brackets the road nicely for a more closed-in feeling.

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Northern Ridge -

If it is needed for an actual unit that will be on the map, then it needs to be there.

Build a ridge/series of ridges along Northern edge, making the top inacessible from any playable area. 15-20 metres is enough for a cliff face. Go look at Valley of the Shadow map for example of map edge ridges.

Heavy concealment along top area.

Place any relevant units/reinforcements(i am assuming FOs) on top without a setup zone, or with their own setup zone that no other unit shares.

taa - daa ... instant FO with all the God-like LOS goodness, but no fattening gameyness from other units.

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[sburke]

First of all ... wow. Excellent work. It will be a comp-breaker with troops and calculations running, but my comp would gladly risk its life for this one.

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Thanks for the encouragement and the advice. I started experimenting along the Kall crossing with bushes as I wasn't happy with how bald the terrain is. I will also take those suggestions on firebreaks and apply them to the Kall trail itself. Using even dirt road tiles doesn't get the feel right. However your suggestions of rocky red dirt and trees should I think be able to get that more claustrophic, barely hacked trail feel. Add a few stumps and downed tress and it has potential. If only there were a flavor item for discarded tank tracks

[Sgt Schultz]

Try Dirt Road with Red or Rocky Red underneath, and pairs of trees as well.

.....

Oh now you've gone and done it.. be right back ....

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[Sgt Schultz]

OK... found the trail and did some options.

This is Rocky Red and 'B' trees on same tile as road. Near the bottom of trail by the river.

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Here we are looking down toards the river from about the middle of the trail. Red Dirt with 'E' trees on road tiles.

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Looking uphill towards a change to Rocky from about the same place.

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Rocky near the top.

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Is that more what you are looking for?

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[Sgt Schultz]

This is Red Dirt with 'B' trees.

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Now we get dangerous with Light Forest on the road tiles...

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Then we have one of the most evil, sadistic things a designer can do to a hapless player ...

Heavy Forest everywhere - mwuhahaha - you lose it here brother ... you in a world of hurt..

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Never be afraid to slap trees and other terrain right in the road tiles. I have found places to put the 3 tree tile on a road occasionally. Pairs work best on N/S and E/W roads it seems.

[RockinHarry]

I did visit the area a number of times as well did lots of research during past 20 years or so.

The Kall "river" is more of a rocky and shallow brook, that can barely be presented with CMBN "shallow fords". It´s no true obstacle to infantry movements, even in winter and more of an obstacle to vehicles due to the rocky and stony nature. So it´s probably a better idea, not to use any water tiles and use just rocky or muddy ground instead. This also gives the freedom, to realistically recreate the elevation steps in the Kall river gorge.

The area around Vossenack and Schmidt towns sees mostly meadows (wire fenced), few muddy fields, bits of orchards and such.

Beside the kall gorge road (the one used by the 116 Pz Division Reccon detachement) can possibly recreated with dirt road, but everything else is single lane trails. Same counts for the firebrakes. I´d just try with dirt/mud tiles and single "centered" style evergreen trees. Using dirt roads would be too much in any case.

Most of the woods would be Type E tree and density of 2 at max. Dirt and light forest in checkerboard pattern gives the best impression of the actual forest ground in the area. A good number of craters would be also useful.

The Bergstein ridge and Burgberg (castle) hill would not be of concern for the CMBN battle actually. It mostly commands the hilltop areas around Vossenack/Germeter, Hurtgen and partly the Schmidt plateau. Using lots of TRPs for germans and hidden spotters would be way to go, particularly in the gorges and slope areas.

Some very useful reference website with stories, pics and maps:

http://home.scarlet.be/~tsc94696/sitemap.htm

[Sgt Schultz]

Rockin' has the historical info that obviates my last option, but I will post it anyway.

This is dirt road with all Heavy Forest and triple 'E' tree on road and two tiles to either side. Then I added 'small gate' Low Bocage in alternating tiles along the road.

It's as crowded as I could reasonably make it, without removing the road tiles and having a fit over locking half the hillside.

While I agree that firebreaks should not be represented as road tiles, it can be a lot of both man-hours and locked tiles(comp load) to smooth out the elevations on this monster where the trails are.

It should be chopped to it's basic component maps soon imho. Even leaving extra around for tweaking each battle, they would be smaller than this colossus. I got out of memory three times so far tweaking, and it has been a while since I had that happen.

[sburke]

Thanks for all the input, very much appreciated.

Below are a couple pics of the Kall trail for others who haven't downloaded them. I tried your suggestion for the firebreaks using red rock, threw in some stumps and logs and I like the effect. It does make it harder to add trees as they won't stay off what is considered the road, but even without them I think it starts to feel more closed in. Although considering RockinHarry's feedback and what shows in the pictures, it isn't as dense as I'd thought.

Check out the tank treads though, gives you some idea of how narrow the trail really is and how steep it drops off. Interesting information in the Green book and critique of the US forces was their unwillingness to just shove disabled tanks off the trail. They had plenty to support the infantry, they just seemed unwilling to do what was needed to push through even at the expense of otherwise undamaged vehicles.

I recall a story of the Soviet Bagration offensive where they needed to force a river crossing. They simply drove a tank in till it flooded then used it as the foundation for a bridge. Sometimes you just have to love the Russian army for it's ingenuity and willingness to sacrifice anything to get the job done.

I did run out of memory once, but only after dropping in and out of 3D mode quite a few times. Once I think I have the basic map and terrain/ground tiles selected I may start considering breaking up the map, but it does simplify things greatly from an integration point to keep working with it as a whole piece for as long as I can.

I will go back to the forest tiles and ground tile within them next. RockinHarry from what your experience has been it sounds like the brush layer of the forest is not quite that dense - under the evergreen canopy would it be your feeling that LOS extends fairly far considering it is forest? I was wondering if layering in hedges for dense brush was appropriate, but it seems that is not the case as you and SgtSchultz have noted.

Very helpful on the wire enclosures as well. I would have expected more fieldstone walls simply from people clearing fields and piling them up, but it seems they are mostly wire. The pics I have found online do not have enough detail to really tell.

I will play around with the suggestions regarding the Kall itself. It would definitely help get the map elevations back on target to not use water if I can simulate a brook effect using rocks, marsh and mud. Maybe throw in some shallow ford tiles once I get to the bottom elevation layer.

Next consideration is, if the map really isn't usable as a whole, should I consider going back and using the original scale and elevations and only create the portions needed for the areas actually fought over. I am not sure that would work as Schmidt and Kommerscheidt would have to be on one map and though it would still be smaller than this map, it wouldn't be by much. What it would do is get the correct distances in and that could become really important in the fighting between 116th Pz Panthers and the Shermans that did make it across the Kall. After all, with all the effort BFC put into penetration characteristics, it seems a shame to skew the distance and in effect discard all that work.

Ahh the fun of tradeoffs in map making. I am beginning to understand the pain. MarkEzra, my apologies to you for any insinuation that you slacked off while creating a ton of QB maps. I owe you an evenings bar tab whether you feel I did so or not.

[LongLeftFlank]

Great stuff! Good luck and I will look forward to playing it.

Further to earlier comments on how to build a large "master map", I've found it best to put down as little vegetation (including bocage) as possible. Getting elevations right -- gullies, trails, etc. are absolutely key in a hilly map and they're going to tax your PC to the limit as it is.

To aid in creating the smaller game submaps, you should build sample detail patches of your typical vegetation design.

[sburke]

Great stuff! Good luck and I will look forward to playing it.

Further to earlier comments on how to build a large "master map", I've found it best to put down as little vegetation (including bocage) as possible. Getting elevations right -- gullies, trails, etc. are absolutely key in a hilly map and they're going to tax your PC to the limit as it is.

To aid in creating the smaller game submaps, you should build sample detail patches of your typical vegetation design.

Thanks, yeah I have been following your's and Broadsword's efforts. It what finally spurred me to do this. (Yes it is YOUR fault, between your latest effort and Ramadi you have increased expectations at an unsupportable pace. Kind of like the housing bust. I shall call you Goldman LLF Sachs as my PC crashes unable to move even a single jeep across my map ) I am still debating the scaling issue. I hadn't thought about it prior to my previous post, but by altering the scale I unwittingly altered the dynamics of how the CM engine is going to be able to replicate the engagement. As the primary fighting is broken up into non mutually supporting fights, maintaining the master map becomes less important. The main battlegrounds are the initial fighting to sieze Vossenack, then the first US thrust that carries all the way to Schmidt then finally the German counterattacks which occur in a couple places but primarily the Schmidt/ Kommerscheidt area. I need to go back over my map and look at the specific combat engagements and see what makes sense.

[LongLeftFlank]

Well, terrain is the "third player" in every CM game -- and every RL battle -- as I've long said.

Proper handling of map details in the design allows for a very different game experience than simply throwing down a bunch of houses, trees and bocage on a Google map footprint. It's worth the effort, in my view.

If BFC could find a way to enable copy-pasting of terrain within and between maps, the "model railroaders" in the community could provide scenario designers a steady supply of authentic templates. And since your map is presumably more appropriate to the Bulge game (which will be a separate "family", not a CMBN module), it would be nice to be able to transfer your map to that game without starting the entire thing from scratch.

[Sgt Schultz]

Oh what I wouldn't give for copy and paste from one map to another.

We could make uber-mecha Voltron-like combinations of our favorites, as well as making design a lot easier in later stages.

Yeah sburke, I tried to match the pics in the download as far as the trail is concerned. Maybe use light forest and three 'B' trees in the trail area instead of 'E' evergreens and heavy forest.

I would keep in either hedge or bocage tiles with the small gates here and there. Popping them in in random places allows LOS breaks without making super dense forests. I throw a triple bush tile in forests every now and then instead of a tree tile as well.

As far as scaling and battle maps-

You have already put in some serious time. Maybe take what you have and chop that into a few QB maps, then make a series of 1-to-1 maps for the real campaign with the design knowledge gained.

Either way I am playing it.

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[sburke]

Oh what I wouldn't give for copy and paste from one map to another.

We could make uber-mecha Voltron-like combinations of our favorites, as well as making design a lot easier in later stages.

Yeah sburke, I tried to match the pics in the download as far as the trail is concerned. Maybe use light forest and three 'B' trees in the trail area instead of 'E' evergreens and heavy forest.

I would keep in either hedge or bocage tiles with the small gates here and there. Popping them in in random places allows LOS breaks without making super dense forests. I throw a triple bush tile in forests every now and then instead of a tree tile as well.

As far as scaling and battle maps-

You have already put in some serious time. Maybe take what you have and chop that into a few QB maps, then make a series of 1-to-1 maps for the real campaign with the design knowledge gained.

Either way I am playing it.

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Thanks, I'll be copying all these suggestions into a notepad to try to apply them. As to that last suggestion, great idea if for no other reason than it allows me to actually use what I had already done and have a reason to continue to work on.

I have started slicing up the game map and I think I can create a map not too overly ridiculous that can handle Schmidt and KommerScheidt and include the Kall Trail. I will probably create a bigger map than necessary and then pare it down once I see what is really needed for the AO. I expect it may start out somewhere around 2x3, but will be to scale, not half scale. It's bit better than 2x4. Only reason I am shooting to include the trail is the issue of whether on not those tanks make it across can have such a huge impact. Gonna suck though for the US player if their tanks bog on that trail.....

An alternative that might allow shrinking the playing area while still dealing with the bog issue is simply to put the tortuous climb up from the gorge on the Kommersheidt side. That could cut out upward of 1000 yards.

[RockinHarry]

I´d definitely go for campaign mode and break it all up for appropiate single engagements. I worked on hurtgen forest stuff in CMAK, but had to more or less abandon it for certain incapabilities in the map editor, lack of elevation steps and for the tree burst effects on helpless defenders (which had plenty of dugouts and covered foxholes & trenches). Now with CMBN more things are doable, although the fortification issues remain...

Most of the "density" effects in the evergreen part of the forest comes from two things:

1. Fir tree branches partly extending close to the ground

2. Once large parts of the forest was heavily shelled, the gound was littered with fallen trees, branches and the like.

Hard to recreate in CMBN with the given means, unless you don´t care about looks. Then using brush, bocage,...would be viable.

The populated areas would see much use of field stones for building the houses, walls (backyard and gardens), but also hedges. Meadows and pastures were (and still are) lined with wire fences.

[sburke]

I´d definitely go for campaign mode and break it all up for appropiate single engagements. I worked on hurtgen forest stuff in CMAK, but had to more or less abandon it for certain incapabilities in the map editor, lack of elevation steps and for the tree burst effects on helpless defenders (which had plenty of dugouts and covered foxholes & trenches). Now with CMBN more things are doable, although the fortification issues remain...

Most of the "density" effects in the evergreen part of the forest comes from two things:

1. Fir tree branches partly extending close to the ground

2. Once large parts of the forest was heavily shelled, the gound was littered with fallen trees, branches and the like.

Hard to recreate in CMBN with the given means, unless you don´t care about looks. Then using brush, bocage,...would be viable.

The populated areas would see much use of field stones for building the houses, walls (backyard and gardens), but also hedges. Meadows and pastures were (and still are) lined with wire fences.

Thanks for all the hints and advice. I am going to continue with it and finish both this one and a larger scale one, but I suspect I won't really feel right until I do it again for the Bulge family. I am also taking the tools I am creating for this one to use to convert Screaming Eagles, TCS game of the 101st at Veghel. I just finished making a 4x4 map with 125 yard grid lines to facilitate transferring info to the map faster. The Veghel map as very little elevation changes, but I'll need the MG module to get the terrain right. Hopefully we will get Dikes and windmills.