Thoughts on the Entente invading Belgium

[Glabro]

I've been trying the Russia first option as the CP several times now, and one thing I've been wondering about is the Entente invading Belgium. I somehow assumed that this would not be a problem, given that the UK and Belgium were allies and the main reason the UK and thus eventually the US entered the war! However, I understand that the UK joins regardless - it wouldn't be much of a challenge for the CP to win against just France and Russia!

Still, invading Belgium as the Entente should usually not be a good option for the Entente. I don't think the UK would approve at all, and would likely withdraw support from France, and would help defend Belgium instead.

So what repercussions are there besides US disapproval for invading Belgium? This is the natural route for the Entente to take against the German defensive wall. I think diplomacy would have to be used instead - or an amphibious invasion!

[xwormwood]

The UK didn't cared that much about Belgium, they cared much more about Germany getting too dangerous.

Britain would have always entered the war against Germany. Belgium or not.

The German attack on neutral Belgium was more or less a welcome justification for their war entry.

But they couldn't have allowed that Germany, already the strongest european country, would end up winning this war against France and Russia.

This might have been different if Germany wouldn't have build up a navy nearly strong enough to defeat the Royal Navy.

But victorious Germany (against France and Russia) would have eaten the UK for breakfast, so their decision to enter the War on the side of the Entente might have been even the same in case that Germany didn't have had such a strong navy.

[Ivanov]

In one of the games played by me, my opponent did not invade Belgium as Germany. It allowed me to defend the shorter front in the West, only with the French units and spent all the British MMPs' into research and diplomacy. So in mid 1915 Belgium joined Entente anyway, due to the efforts of English diplomacy. It opened a route for the already well upgraded UK forces, to attack, unprotected German northern flank. Using diplomacy was more fruitful than invasion, because it didn't have any negative consequences on the US attitude towards the Entente and the whole Belgian army with the potential for being upgraded to the Brit tech levels, joined my forces

In my opinion not invading Belgium by Germany in 1914 is a gift to the Entente. The French and Brit forces at the beggining of the game are fare more stretched than the Gremans. Not invading Belgium by Germany, gives them time to regroup and gather sufficient forces for the future operations. I don't think that there is a better concept to wage the war in the West, than the one propossed by Herr von Schlieffen long time ago

[Kommandant]

But the main question here is that when UK declares war on belgium, there are very few counter parts, there sould be something to be done against UK declaration of war, like incrising activation to CP for norway and mainly USA i think. Waht would not put UK in an impossible position to not declare war but would give germany the ability to make unrestricted naval warfare more times, and norway would be strongly linked to germany.

I think it makes a lot o sense for norwa turning like, 50% or even 60% to CP side, for it would fear that UK could delare war agains them justo to put them out of the war.

[Glabro]

In my opinion not invading Belgium by Germany in 1914 is a gift to the Entente. The French and Brit forces at the beggining of the game are fare more stretched than the Gremans. Not invading Belgium by Germany, gives them time to regroup and gather sufficient forces for the future operations. I don't think that there is a better concept to wage the war in the West, than the one propossed by Herr von Schlieffen long time ago

Indeed, but what if you don't intend to wage war in the West?

Belgium joining via diplomacy is indeed the key, and the CP needs to invest heavily into counter-diplomacy there with this strategy, possibly even swaying the Belgians to their cause - but they need reserve troops to strenghten the Belgian front before they join. This is not such a big issue in probably late 1915 if this were to happen as it is in the beginning.

In any case, you do get the Belgian troops on your side when war is declared, or what's left of them in any case. Certainly Brussels will survive the initial invasion. They also have a corps defending a river crossing on the west border, that might not escape without support though.

I'll be convinced about the Schlieffen plan when I see someone actually take Paris with it by late 1915. In our current PBDB (Play by Dropbox) with the Kommandant, the line has stabilized at Somme once again - we'll see where he takes it from there.

[Ivanov]

Good luck:)

[Rabelesius]

I also would like to explore a win by taking Paris...it's just very difficult (certainly even against the AI). Maybe by going only West and giving up East Prussia and Galicia, there is a chance.

[Bill101]

I'll be convinced about the Schlieffen plan when I see someone actually take Paris with it by late 1915. In our current PBDB (Play by Dropbox) with the Kommandant, the line has stabilized at Somme once again - we'll see where he takes it from there.

Historians still discuss today whether or not the Schlieffen Plan was really thought to be a plan that could capture Paris very quickly, or just the means to establish a very good position within France.

Plus there's the discussion as to whether or not the plan could even work as a means to get to Paris. Martin van Creveld in his book Supplying War contains a very good chapter on the logistical aspects of the Schlieffen Plan, and he argues that it wasn't possible.

The Germans knew that the French army they would be facing would be a much tougher proposition than the one they fought in 1870, and the French had continued to fight on even after Paris was surrounded and besieged.

I do tend to follow the plan pretty closely, but generally just to smash as many French, Belgian and British units as possible, and to establish a front line as close to Paris as possible. Sometimes this will be very close indeed to the French capital, and then it may be possible to develop the position better once your heavy artillery start deploying.

[Sharkman]

In the game I'm playing my CP opponent declaired war on Belgium but did not attack them until much later, he threw the whole German army into northern France, he must have to some extent used "forced march" because there were large ammounts of German troops in northern France on the 1st turn. The French never really recovered, There were between 10 and 15 corps in the Amiens Compiegne area, the French have nothing there. I have tried this strategy against the AI and you can get units as far west as Rouen, this gives the French very little chance to set up a line north of Paris. I tried to set up a line 2 tiles north of Paris and got smashed, I should probably have tried to hold a line on Paris from the start, that's where the line ended up at anyway.

The game is not yet over but I will loose due to French and Russian morale.

[Kommandant]

the problem with the Schlieffen plan in the real war in 1914 is that the germans could not stablish a continuous line in the somme river, belgium was never defeated and the defencive line was to overstreched for the germans that had to send nearly all it's reserves to russia to halt they advance. Now, when i invade Belgium an france, i try to defeat Belgium until the 3 turn and take every thing in the somme line, it gives me a stable line of defence and MPP to spend in troops and the franch morale droping every turn.

I think it's impossible to take paris with the Schlieffen plan, i tried some times agains the AI, even took some AI troops from them, but the only thing i could do was lost the titles close to the sea and get 2 squares from paris until i had to stop because of loost troops, suply, weather and the russians in my backdoor.

[Ivanov]

Let's not forget that what the Germans actually performed in 1914 on the Western Front, was quite diluted version of the original Schlieffen Plan. The original version was much more radical. German armies were supposed to strike even more rapidly on the northen wing, attacking also through the neutral Holland, leaving Alsace-Lorraine vulnerable to the French counter attack. The tretcherous plan was to envelope the counter attacking forces from the north and winning the war quickly and then turing against Russia. In my opinion, such an extreme approach could be successful, however it was also much bigger gamble than the later, more conservative version proposed by Helmuth von Moltke and implemented in 1914.

I think that it would be a really great idea, to make a new scenario or campaign in which the German forces in 1914 would be placed on the Western Front, accordingly to the original plan of the brilliant Count Alfred von Schlieffen. That would be probably the greatest and most thrilling "what if" game ever made:)