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Hi everyone,

After completing few campaigns of SC2 The Great War, one the thoughts I would like to share with you is in regards of the combat performance of the submarines. Of course in most of the cases, we would be talking here about the German U-boots, because they formed the backbone of Kaiserliche Marine or the Kriegsmarine. I like the changes introduced in the patch 1.02. The U-boots are really difficult to detect and destroy, making them really effective weapon against the Allied convoys. So far so good, historically they were used to attack the merchant shipping and were extremely difficult to counter and eradicate, due to the stealth nature of their tactics. What I see as the big minus in the game, is that the submarines are turned into some kind of super-weapon, which is also very effective against the warships of the Allied navies. With a bit of luck in the tech research, the German player can easily unleash his U-boots against the Royal Navy and at least achieve some kind of draw in the fight agains the theoriticaly much stronger opponent. Unless the Allied player don't have some considerable advantage in the antisub tech, it is very difficult to destroy the subs, but they can cause a considerable damage to his fleet. We have to remember that U-boots are much cheaper to replace than the surface ships, so the loos of few of them is not the same for German navy, as the loos of few battleships or carriers to let's say Royal Navy. In the real life, German submarines were avoiding at all costs the open confrontation with the Allied warships, focusing on attacking of the defenceless merchant ships. When Allied navies introduced more numerous and advanced warships to counter the U-boots, the Battle Of the Atlantic was lost by the Germans.

So my final conclusion is, that it would make the game more realistic, if the combat performance of the subs against the warships, would be keep at the minimum and the tech reasearch improved just their anti-convoy and stealth performance. I'm affraid, that in the real life, the super-subs as represented in the game, would starve Britan to death and destroy Royal Navy, winning the war on the seas. The consequences of it to the world could be really disastrous...

Ps. I would like to thank everyone who is responsable for the creation of this wonderful game which is making my life better, happier and more fulfilled... Thank you all.

shipsinking.jpg

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I agree, the Subs should not be so effective against warships, this goes for WW1 and WW2, they should be effective commerce raiders, capable of lucky shots against warships and possibly have an "ambush" function for engaging warships, which might be done by allowing subs to go into "ambush" mode, and remaining stationary and unseen where they hope an enemy warship will bump into them.

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I agree, the Subs should not be so effective against warships, this goes for WW1 and WW2, they should be effective commerce raiders, capable of lucky shots against warships and possibly have an "ambush" function for engaging warships, which might be done by allowing subs to go into "ambush" mode, and remaining stationary and unseen where they hope an enemy warship will bump into them.

That is already in the game: subs only attack with full strength if they haven't moved before.

From my personal experiences (multiplayer games) i would say that the Entente player don't have to fear subs as long as he uses his destroyers to counter them.

If the Entente player uses his fleet wisely (upgrade the destroyers, keep the fleet near to them, usage of destroyer task forces instead of single ships) he can only win from sub attacks against his major vessels.

Germany can't afford to lose much National Morale at the high seas against the UK. So if the German player heavily invests into subs, the UK should do likewise (destroyers and subs). This should allow the Russians and the French to build up some punch power against the Central Powers.

I guess the key is not defend everything with your destroyers, but to build hard hitting hunter groups. If you see that the Germans keep buildings subs, than do the same with you destroyers. And have your fleet ready to counter a possible Hochseeflotten-all out attack on your destroyers.

Place some of your own subs near the german bight in case that the Germans send their fleet.

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the thing is that the germans send the subs with the fleet. together they make a very powerful combo, in the game they are much more powerful working together than they were when they tried working together in real life.

its hard to counter subs with your destroyers, when then are getting flattened by battleships.

of course its true the allied player could do the same thing, build alot of subs, but then your getting a very unrealistic type of naval war going on.

its just way to easy in the game to cordinate fleets with subs. irl they just didnt work that effectivly together.

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I agree, the Subs should not be so effective against warships, this goes for WW1 and WW2, they should be effective commerce raiders, capable of lucky shots against warships and possibly have an "ambush" function for engaging warships, which might be done by allowing subs to go into "ambush" mode, and remaining stationary and unseen where they hope an enemy warship will bump into them.

This is a great idea - introduction of a third sub mode - "ambush". It would allow subs to cause a considerable damage to the warships that would bump into them. Ambush is the only real life situation when subs were able to sink a surface warship.

the thing is that the germans send the subs with the fleet. together they make a very powerful combo, in the game they are much more powerful working together than they were when they tried working together in real life.

its hard to counter subs with your destroyers, when then are getting flattened by battleships.

of course its true the allied player could do the same thing, build alot of subs, but then your getting a very unrealistic type of naval war going on.

its just way to easy in the game to cordinate fleets with subs. irl they just didnt work that effectivly together.

I agree with the point about the coordination between the subs and the surface wessels. Let's just imagine a submarine taking part in a naval battle trying to engage enemy battleships with it's only cannon...:)

That is already in the game: subs only attack with full strength if they haven't moved before.

From my personal experiences (multiplayer games) i would say that the Entente player don't have to fear subs as long as he uses his destroyers to counter them.

I guess the key is not defend everything with your destroyers, but to build hard hitting hunter groups. If you see that the Germans keep buildings subs, than do the same with you destroyers. And have your fleet ready to counter a possible Hochseeflotten-all out attack on your destroyers.

Place some of your own subs near the german bight in case that the Germans send their fleet.

The thing is that I don't see subs less efective against the surface wessels than other type of warships.

About using destroyer battlegroups. A real life example from a game that I currently play against Abukede ( I hope we still play it );)

Sub.png

One of my destroyers bumped into a sub. I didn't attack it fearing that it could escape. Four out of five British destroyers were based near Scapa Flow so I brought all of them, plus other nearby warships, just in order to surround the sub and prevent it's escape. Obviously during his turn, my opponent attacked the carrier, damaging it heavily. It took my three turns to sink the sub, using 80% of my Royal Navy. This example proves the point that subs are extremely difficult to destroy, which is correct. It other circumstances, considering the size of the map, a destroyer battlegroup consisting of 2-3 ships may only scare off the U-boots, but not destroy them. That kind of impunity along with the sub effectiveness against the surface wessels, tempts German player into head on confrontation against the enemy fleet, which I think should not happen. So the perfect sollution would be making subs difficult to detect and to destroy ( as it is done now in the game ) and introduction a new "ambush" mode that would be the only effective way of engaging the enemy surface warships.

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Ok, little misunderstandig:

i ment WW1 games, you ment WW2 games.

I'm no expert for the new WW2 campaign, but i guess it might be a good thing to invest into anti-sub tech.

Your fleet has not anti-sub tech, the sub does have tech level 1.

The next thing: i don't think it is wise to place a carrier next to a sub on purpose. This generates exactly the ambush opportunity you would like to introduce. So i presume your carrier got ambushed and heavily damaged.

THe UK lost a couple of carriers from subs.

HMS_Ark_Royal_sinking_2.jpg

If i would have played this game i wouldn't have brought the carrier into a position where the enemy sub couldn't see it while it still coould spot or attack the sub on its own.

But i would have never placed the carrier next to an enemy vessel on purpose.

With all your destroyers it might have been better to let the sub try to escape, and hoping that it might bumb into one of your destroyers on its own.

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the thing is that the germans send the subs with the fleet. together they make a very powerful combo, in the game they are much more powerful working together than they were when they tried working together in real life.

its hard to counter subs with your destroyers, when then are getting flattened by battleships.

of course its true the allied player could do the same thing, build alot of subs, but then your getting a very unrealistic type of naval war going on.

its just way to easy in the game to cordinate fleets with subs. irl they just didnt work that effectivly together.

Again, i guess we are talking about different campaigns.

In WW1 it would be nice to get the Hochseeflotte at sea, as the german player can't afford much losses while the UK can.

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Ok, little misunderstandig:

i ment WW1 games, you ment WW2 games.

I'm no expert for the new WW2 campaign, but i guess it might be a good thing to invest into anti-sub tech.

Your fleet has not anti-sub tech, the sub does have tech level 1.

The next thing: i don't think it is wise to place a carrier next to a sub on purpose. This generates exactly the ambush opportunity you would like to introduce. So i presume your carrier got ambushed and heavily damaged.

The screenshoot from the WWII campaign isn't maybe the most fortunate example. Obviously placing a carrier next to the sub is not a good idea. It was just an experiment from my side, to see how difficult it would be to destroy a fully surrounded sub. In the Storm Over Europe campaign Germans start with the sub tech level 1 while the UK antisub tech is on the level "0", so fighting the U-boots is realy difficult.

An example from another, this time WWI game. The warships of the Kaiserliche Marine confronting the might of British navy right on it's doorstep. In the real conditions it would be a suicidal move, but because the surface warships are screened by the subs ( not upgraded ), the battle ends inconclusive. The Germans lost one battleship but managed to withdraw, damaging heavily the English fleet. No sub was sunk, despite the presence of a considerable destroyer force.

Naval.png

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Again, i guess we are talking about different campaigns.

In WW1 it would be nice to get the Hochseeflotte at sea, as the german player can't afford much losses while the UK can.

actually i was talking about ww1.

with subs as effective against warships as they currantly are, the smaller german fleet can really threaten the RN with defeat by just building enough subs to support his high seas fleet.

irl having masses of subs supporting your fleet was a massive waste of the subs, they rarely accomplished anything beyond sinking cripples. this applies to both world wars. the main reason for this is that the subs were just to dam slow when submerged. during ww1 i expect that it was hard to comunicate tactically with subs during fleet actions. iirc warships despite having radios, still relied on signal flags and lamps for tactical communication. kinda hard to do with submerged subs i bet.

as already stated by others, subs were really only effective against warships when they could ambush them.

note: i dont think a separate ambush mode is really necessary. just really toning down the subs attack factor after moving should be enough. leave them as effective they are now if they dont move.

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actually i was talking about ww1.

note: i dont think a separate ambush mode is really necessary. just really toning down the subs attack factor after moving should be enough. leave them as effective they are now if they dont move.

A special "ambush" mode would represent an intention of a player ( U-boot crew ) of attacking some valuable and vulnerable enemy surface wessels. It would be a matter of choice between the available modes. Accidental bumping into a sub represents just a random encounter, during which in the real life situation U-boot crew would rather try to escape than to engage.

U-boatcrew.gif

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subs would try to escape if it was destroyers coming at them. bb's or ca's are a differant story. random ecounter or not, i think that irl sub's would try to attack a bb that was passing by.

i really dont get the mechcanics of your ambush mode. why should a sub have to remain stationary AND go into ambush mode. why isnt remaining stationary enough?

how would you have it work out when a ship bumps into a stationary sub thats not in ambush mode, would that ship get a free pass? if thats the case then pretty much everytime i wasnt moving a sub i would put it in ambush mode.

it just seems like it would be a waste of time having to change modes on a sub that wasnt going to move anyway.

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subs would try to escape if it was destroyers coming at them. bb's or ca's are a differant story. random ecounter or not, i think that irl sub's would try to attack a bb that was passing by.

how would you have it work out when a ship bumps into a stationary sub thats not in ambush mode, would that ship get a free pass? if thats the case then pretty much everytime i wasnt moving a sub i would put it in ambush mode.

As mentioned in the previous posts, the principal taks of subs is attacking convoys, not surface ships. So it would be players choice if to use the sub in this role ( set to hunt mode ) or set it to ambush hoping to encounter a valuable target, but risking a confrontation with enemy's destroyers and disabling it's anti convoy characteristics. An accidental bump into a sub set to a different mode than ambush would just cause the ship to stop. Let's imagine that both sides were not ready to engage and they would need to decide if to fight or flight, what would occur during the next turn. A U-boot commander can then set his wessel to ambush and move away hoping that the enemy will bump into it during the chase. A introduction of the third sub mode would be a step in order to limit the U-boots current versatility and it would force the player to take decisions as to in which role use his submarines.

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The screenshoot from the WWII campaign isn't maybe the most fortunate example. Obviously placing a carrier next to the sub is not a good idea. It was just an experiment from my side, to see how difficult it would be to destroy a fully surrounded sub. In the Storm Over Europe campaign Germans start with the sub tech level 1 while the UK antisub tech is on the level "0", so fighting the U-boots is realy difficult.

An example from another, this time WWI game. The warships of the Kaiserliche Marine confronting the might of British navy right on it's doorstep. In the real conditions it would be a suicidal move, but because the surface warships are screened by the subs ( not upgraded ), the battle ends inconclusive. The Germans lost one battleship but managed to withdraw, damaging heavily the English fleet. No sub was sunk, despite the presence of a considerable destroyer force.

But the germans didn't break into the Atlantic nor did they end the sea blockade. Reminds me of the naval battle of Jutland.

On you picture you can see that the germans will very likely lose the war, they have already a worse national morale than the UK, France and Russia. The losses the german side received in you naval battle might make the difference between winning or losing the war once Russia has surrendered (if they ever will, from looking at the NM values they are in a pretty good shape).

I know it hurts at the start to see such battle results, but from my personal experience i learned that this battle was a) still a loss for the german player and B) might have been ended pretty differently if you have had the biggest part of your fleet prepared for this engagement. One part scouting, one part fighting, one part blocking the escape routes of the Hochseeflotte.

But when it comes to fighting subs, my counsel (sorry for handing it out without beeing asked to) would be to invest one ore two chits into anti-sub warfare. You need this tech if you want to rule the seas.

And don't forget that supply, morale and readiness influence combat results as well.

When it comes to your idea about the ambush mode, i like the current version of the game better. I wouldn't want to work through all of my subs just to place them into ambush mode or not.

If i want "ambush" results, i hide my sub where i hope to get prey and don't move before the attack, just to get the best possible results. Thats easier and reflects the same idea).

But i like how your fight for your idea, for what you think and feel might be better than the current combat system.

Thats the spirit!

:)

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subs would try to escape if it was destroyers coming at them. bb's or ca's are a differant story. random ecounter or not, i think that irl sub's would try to attack a bb that was passing by.

i really dont get the mechcanics of your ambush mode. why should a sub have to remain stationary AND go into ambush mode. why isnt remaining stationary enough?

how would you have it work out when a ship bumps into a stationary sub thats not in ambush mode, would that ship get a free pass? if thats the case then pretty much everytime i wasnt moving a sub i would put it in ambush mode.

it just seems like it would be a waste of time having to change modes on a sub that wasnt going to move anyway.

Agreed.

But if subs commanders might have the feeling that they were able to destroy a destroyer group, my guess is that they would attack.

In WW2 the germans installed anti-aircraft guns on their subs and were ordered to fight of attacking planes. Some actually did (and paid probably the ultimate price for this tactic or order).

And there are other examples.

Bottom line: subs already don't get very favourable results from attacking destroyers. So if you have two or three destroyers at sea and in range to support each other, you might have a very good chance to sink the sub if it decides to attack you.

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I know it hurts at the start to see such battle results, but from my personal experience i learned that this battle was a) still a loss for the german player and B) might have been ended pretty differently if you have had the biggest part of your fleet prepared for this engagement. One part scouting, one part fighting, one part blocking the escape routes of the Hochseeflotte.

There were two major naval clashes during the current game I play, in both cases the Germans lost more wessels, but they should have end in the slaughter, due to the superiority of the British navy. The English had about 5 upgraded battleships, 3 upgraded cruisers and 4 destroyers and one seaplane carrier in place, while my opponent sent each time 2 battleships, 3 cruisers and 3-4 damn subs, that were screening his force, preventing it's total destruction. It was a wise tactic, considering the current sub abilities in the game, but has nothing to do with the realities of the war... I know that the introduction of the ambush mode is a bit controversial and it would be technicaly difficult to implement, but the bottom line is that the combat pottential of the wretched subs should be limited:mad:

And yes, we will never surrender!

:D

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And yes, we will never surrender!

:D

Excellent!

:D

Just made a quick check about anglo-american destroyer losses in WW2:

15 to 20 % of the destroyer losses were caused from sub attacks

quote wikipedia:

"During the war, 153 British, Canadian and Australian destroyers were lost.

Losses by submarine: 33"

The USA lost 89 DD and DE. Losses by submarine: 13

Just writing this to prove that subs actually did attack destroyers.

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Hi

I like this discussion and just wanted to posit a few thoughts.

Firstly, with patch 1.02 we did introduce a new sub ambush mode in the sense that a submarine that attacks before moving will inflict about twice as much damage as one that moves then attacks. I'd be interested to know whether this new mechanism has affected your thoughts at all.

Secondly, in the example of the Carrier and Battleship helping to surround a U-Boat, my initial thought was that the Royal Navy can't be that afraid of the U-Boat if it's deliberately sending surface vessels to help fence it in.

Xwormwood's comments to form a pack of Destroyers to go sub hunting is very wise advice, because even if they don't immediately sink an enemy sub on attacking it, every attack they launch will reduce the sub's supply value. The lower this goes, the slower the sub will move and the lower its effectiveness in both commerce raiding and in attacking your surface fleet. So even unsuccessful attacks will help to send that submarine back to port, hopefully in need of some repairs as well as to refuel.

One note of caution regarding reducing the effectiveness of subs in attacking surface vessels, is that if their effectiveness is reduced too much then players will quite happily use Battleships and Cruisers not only to help defend their convoy routes, but also to block submarines' approach and withdrawal routes. There is a fine balance to be struck here.

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I could really live with the effectivness of the U-boats if Germany didn't get so many of them for free (I'm talking about Global Conflict here, although they do get quite a few in WW1 for free as well). I assume this is done to encourage a battle for the convoy lines, otherwise Germany probably would not invest money in u-boats. I think a good counter-balance would be to provide the British with free strategic bombers (Global Conflict) throughout the game, similar to the u-boats, maybe we might see some serious strategic bombing done by England, so far I have not played an Allied game where the Brits had 2 bucks to spare for risky strategic bombing raids.

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Hi

One note of caution regarding reducing the effectiveness of subs in attacking surface vessels, is that if their effectiveness is reduced too much then players will quite happily use Battleships and Cruisers not only to help defend their convoy routes, but also to block submarines' approach and withdrawal routes. There is a fine balance to be struck here.

This is a very good point that I haven't considered. Now the question is what to do in order to discourage the use of wolfpacks against the surface vessels of RN or USN in big, head on, naval battles as on the WWI example presented few posts before? I think that further reducing of striking punch of the U-boots after the move would be a sollution. Sure, the Allied player may try to block subs in the ports, but the sollution would be to bring some airpower agains the blocking ships. A loss of a battleship or a a cruiser due to the aircraft is much more severe than loss of let's say 30MMP due to the sub action. The German player may also bring some of his surface vessels and by achieving local superiority cause a serious damage to the dispersed Allied vessels.

Also regarding the change introduced in the patch 1.02. It is a really good improvement but it actually increases the sub potential. If the sub is attacking a warship that didn't move in the previous turn, it's not really an ambush situation but an open clash, were both sides want it and are prepared for it. Sub ambushes a surface vessel when a suprise is achieved and I'm sure that 90% of the 15% RN ships sunken by the subs, mentioned by Xwormwood, were not knowing what actually hit them:)

An example how the current system works in the actual game. A battleship bumps accidentally into a sub, taking some small damage and giving the sub a an opportunity to hit it hard it the next turn. Usually the warships operate in the battlegroups, so after bumping into a sub the Allied player has an opportunity to attack the sub with another vessel. He brings a destroyer which attacks the sub. The subs escapes evading the damage but losses the opportunity to strike the battleship in the next turn. So the BB stays relatively undamaged, but the sub commander may simply try do bump into the Allied ships in the next turn, due to the relative impunity of such a move and the striking power of the subs after they are moved. If there are few subs around, they can completely paralize the Allied battlegroup, even if it consists of destroyers and carriers. Due to that the Allied player will always take some serious damage, the U-boots - not necessarily.

If the Royal Navy having 8:1 superiority feared a single sub, it wouldn't deserve a title of the Queen of the Seas :D

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Hi

One note of caution regarding reducing the effectiveness of subs in attacking surface vessels, is that if their effectiveness is reduced too much then players will quite happily use Battleships and Cruisers not only to help defend their convoy routes, but also to block submarines' approach and withdrawal routes. There is a fine balance to be struck here.

I think a good soultion to this is to allways allow a moving u-boat to pass through non destroyer naval units if the owning player wishes to avoid combat, this would prevent BB's from blocking u-boats at all and would also give the sub owner some control over which ships to attack and which to avoid without giving his position away, this would solve another problem: it seems silly that when a sub bumps into a BB that it does not wish to engage that it should be forced to stop and get attacked next turn.

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Hi

I like this discussion and just wanted to posit a few thoughts.

Firstly, with patch 1.02 we did introduce a new sub ambush mode in the sense that a submarine that attacks before moving will inflict about twice as much damage as one that moves then attacks. I'd be interested to know whether this new mechanism has affected your thoughts at all.

Secondly, in the example of the Carrier and Battleship helping to surround a U-Boat, my initial thought was that the Royal Navy can't be that afraid of the U-Boat if it's deliberately sending surface vessels to help fence it in.

Xwormwood's comments to form a pack of Destroyers to go sub hunting is very wise advice, because even if they don't immediately sink an enemy sub on attacking it, every attack they launch will reduce the sub's supply value. The lower this goes, the slower the sub will move and the lower its effectiveness in both commerce raiding and in attacking your surface fleet. So even unsuccessful attacks will help to send that submarine back to port, hopefully in need of some repairs as well as to refuel.

One note of caution regarding reducing the effectiveness of subs in attacking surface vessels, is that if their effectiveness is reduced too much then players will quite happily use Battleships and Cruisers not only to help defend their convoy routes, but also to block submarines' approach and withdrawal routes. There is a fine balance to be struck here.

actually in light of this post and my current game playing 1.02, im rethinking my objections to subs as they are in 1.02.

i launched an attack against the brit blockcade with the entire german navy, well supported by subs. the RN was able to force me into a rather humilating retreat. My opponent had plenty of destroyers on hand at the same level as my subs and most of his surface ships were the same level of anti sub tech. he was able to more than keep my subs at bay. in fact my subs are really taking a beating. im starting to think it was a mistake to use them against his fleet. i should of used the distraction my fleet provided in order to break my subs out into the open seas where they could of been more profitable used against convoys.

my surface ships did manage to sink 2 bbs without losing any myself, but my destroyers and cruisers took a beating. all in all i'd say the germans came out better, but just like irl they had to flee back to base.

in a nut shell, i'd have to say the subs as they are now in 1.02, are best used against convoys.

as stated by xworm and others, subs in 1.02 aren't that much use against a fleet well protected by destroyers and equal anti sub tech. which is how it was irl.

in short, disregard my previous posts on the subject.

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i launched an attack against the brit blockcade with the entire german navy, well supported by subs. the RN was able to force me into a rather humilating retreat. My opponent had plenty of destroyers on hand at the same level as my subs and most of his surface ships were the same level of anti sub tech. he was able to more than keep my subs at bay. in fact my subs are really taking a beating. im starting to think it was a mistake to use them against his fleet. i should of used the distraction my fleet provided in order to break my subs out into the open seas where they could of been more profitable used against convoys.

I think that the German WWI & WWII navies would nearly always take the beating due to the numerical superiority of the Allied navies, in most of the possible game scenarios. The problem is, that due to the present sub capabilities it would take too long and we will get the unreralistic type of warfare going on. I like the previous point about the potential difficulties of the coordination between the subs and the surface vessels in the WWI conditions. It's also the realism we are fighting here for... ;) In reality the German fleet was always to weak to risk an the open confrontation, on let's say the the Channel waters. Due to that, we could observe the wide spread use of raiders, because trying to stay undetected was the best survival tactic prefered by the lone, German seawolfs :eek: With the current system, the German player may risk suprise raids against separate Allied battlegroups and win. With the sub screening, this tactic could be very fruitful, spare the Germans confiderable losses and enable them to get the upper hand in some future.

I think a good soultion to this is to allways allow a moving u-boat to pass through non destroyer naval units if the owning player wishes to avoid combat, this would prevent BB's from blocking u-boats at all and would also give the sub owner some control over which ships to attack and which to avoid without giving his position away, this would solve another problem: it seems silly that when a sub bumps into a BB that it does not wish to engage that it should be forced to stop and get attacked next turn.

Another very good point. In the current system, the subs may be set to the "silent" mode. I am not entirerely sure how it improves it's stealth abilities ( I have rather more experience fighting the U-boots than commanding them) ;) Any comment on the "silent" mode feature?

Keiser2.jpg

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