I have an example of a Sherman becoming imobalized on a road

[A Canadian Cat]

In a recent PBEM game one of my Sherman's became immobilized half on the road and half off (not sure what type of terrain is next to the road). At first I thought it was due to the fact that it drove through a breach in the bocage. The lead tank is a Rino and this one was the fifth tank through the breach the first tank made. But I checked its tracks and they are showing green but the tank is immobilized so I don't think the fact that it drove through a breach in the bocage is a factor.

I know there was some discussion recently here about tanks getting immobilized on roads and there was a request for saved game files. If anyone on the testing team or at Battlefront needs another example just let me know how and where to send the file.

[MikeyD]

A lot of scenarios are 'wet' ground conditions and/or raining out. Some road types become increasingly treacherous the more waterlogged the ground gets. If its raining in the scenario this actually gets worse over time. the rainfall has n effect.

[Pak40]

I've had a couple of tanks on roads (two different scenarios) get immobilized by some mysterious reason. The first was a case where there was no enemy anywhere near the tank, there certainly there was no LOS. The tank simply just broke down on the road.

While I'm fully aware that mechanical things sometimes break down, it's a bit hard to swallow losing a tank in the early stages of a battle that lasts an hour or more but having no way to repair the issue especially if said tank is safely in the rear of the map.

[winkelried]

A lot of scenarios are 'wet' ground conditions and/or raining out. Some road types become increasingly treacherous the more waterlogged the ground gets. If its raining in the scenario this actually gets worse over time. the rainfall has n effect.

I think this depends also on the road type (paved, hard etc), the quality of the driver (i am not sure) and the speed (i often use slow when i am not sure about the road quality) - all accidental observations ...

[winkelried]

While I'm fully aware that mechanical things sometimes break down, it's a bit hard to swallow losing a tank in the early stages of a battle that lasts an hour or more but having no way to repair the issue especially if said tank is safely in the rear of the map.

c'est la guerre - i would say. i just stuck my only M4 assault gun somewhere where it has almost no fire area.

and the to learn to swallow the "hard to swallow" thing was 95% of my officer's training

[winkelried]

While I'm fully aware that mechanical things sometimes break down, it's a bit hard to swallow losing a tank in the early stages of a battle that lasts an hour or more but having no way to repair the issue especially if said tank is safely in the rear of the map.

btw - an hour to recover such a tank wouldn't be enough i fear. first you will have to call the recovery vehicle up, then the guys will just pull out the tank and usually pull it to repair it somewhere else. just to put back a thrown track (e.g. cracked bolt) could take an hour+.

[winkelried]

[A Canadian Cat]

A lot of scenarios are 'wet' ground conditions and/or raining out. Some road types become increasingly treacherous the more waterlogged the ground gets. If its raining in the scenario this actually gets worse over time. the rainfall has n effect.

Oh man I cannot believe I forgot that very important item. Conditions are hazy but no rain. My feeling was that the ground was not muddy, which is why I thought I would offer this saved game. But if the ground is soft then I can grok what happened. This is a quick battle - is there a place I can read what the ground conditions are?

[YankeeDog]

Steve has specifically stated that tanks with tracks in good condition should pretty much never immobilize on a road in dry conditions, and specifically asked for a save game showing this, so this may be something that needs to be looked at.

Of course, there may also be a perfectly reasonable explaination; it's easy to miss something subtle, but important in this game. No way of knowing without someone in the know dissecting the save game.

[A Canadian Cat]

Steve has specifically stated that tanks with tracks in good condition should pretty much never immobilize on a road in dry conditions, and specifically asked for a save game showing this, so this may be something that needs to be looked at.

Exactly why I started this thread. If the powers that be want a PBEM file just say the word(s). It could be that they have what the need to investigate this problem. I am OK with that too:)

[Pak40]

btw - an hour to recover such a tank wouldn't be enough i fear. first you will have to call the recovery vehicle up, then the guys will just pull out the tank and usually pull it to repair it somewhere else. just to put back a thrown track (e.g. cracked bolt) could take an hour+.

Yea, I can understand that but there are other ways to break down. I'm not sure if CMBN models mechanical breakdown though. My point is, if you're going to model non-combat breakdowns, then there should be an option to repair them. Also, you see pictures of tanks with spare tracks hanging on them all the time. What's the point of these if your tank crew can't fix it themselves in some cases?

[Tarquelne]

Steve has specifically stated that tanks with tracks in good condition should pretty much never immobilize on a road in dry conditions, and specifically asked for a save game showing this

Anyone happen to know if a save from well after the Immobilzation would be of any help? I had a Stug become Immobilized in Huzzar (dry), but all I've got is a save from the final turn.

[JonS]

Tarq, I think I have all those save still

[Tarquelne]

Put them in the DB folder? At that point I can root through them and figure out which one it is.

[JonS]

Do you know roughly when it happened - after 20 mins, obviously, but any narrower than that?

[Michael Emrys]

I had an AC become immobilized on a dry road in one of the first games I played. I didn't catch it until the turn after it happened, so I don't know exactly how it came to be, but it was going down one side of the road and might have put a wheel in a ditch. I think it was a dirt road. I haven't been able to find that same map to try it again.

Michael

[winkelried]

Yea, I can understand that but there are other ways to break down. I'm not sure if CMBN models mechanical breakdown though. My point is, if you're going to model non-combat breakdowns, then there should be an option to repair them. Also, you see pictures of tanks with spare tracks hanging on them all the time. What's the point of these if your tank crew can't fix it themselves in some cases?

Sure the crew can fix this - i think it isn't modeled. and in reality i rarely saw it done it under an hour (not under fire!).

[Tarquelne]

I found the immobilized Stug (thanks, Jon) and it was actually one track on a dirt road, one track in a grassy bocage action spot.

Is having each track in a different type of terrain a no-no for WWII vehicles?

[Lt. Smash]

Ian - click on Menus -> Conditions to pull up the scenario conditions. This lists weather, temperature, ground conditions and wind.

What type of road were you driving on? I've seen my vehicles (tanks, armored cars, jeeps, etc.) get bogged and then immobilized in wet conditions on dirt and gravel roads many times.

Bob

[A Canadian Cat]

Ok so I checked the conditions and they are weather is Light Fog, temperature is Hot, ground is Damp and wind is None. The tank as seen below is between a gravel road and grass.

Does not seem like a likely spot to get immobilized but perhaps it is not the corner case mentioned earlier. Anyway if the powers that be would like a saved file or two let me know if not that is OK too.

[drrowley]

i too had a ht immoblize, it was traveling fast and was half off, half on the road. but weather was sunny and dry.

if modeling breakdowns, how about modeling tank towing............

[winkelried]

if modeling breakdowns, how about modeling tank towing............

this indeed would be nice but i think we're dreaming

[drrowley]

yea, i know, been dreaming alot.....;-)

[pamak_1970]

related to immobilizations.

Tanks in mud and forest fighting (operation veritable).

The link below is very interesting. It includes a detailed description of operations, terrain appreciation and casualties with detailed description of the causes.

http://www.royaltankregiment.com/9_RTR/tech/reichswald/Reichswald%20Report.htm

from the above link

Tank Casualties, own troops

By Enemy Action

Mines 5

Bazzoka 3

HE 5

AP 2

Total 15

By other causes

Turret segment 13

Mech failure 20

Clutches (total failure) 3

Bogged 32

Total 68

i.e. A total casualty for two regiments of – 83

Note: It is estimated that only 7% of the tanks in the forest were bogged at any one time.

( It will be seen that, although casualties through enemy action were low, the overall wastage was extremely high. This was due in part to the absence of fitters but chiefly by reason of the abnormal ground and weather conditions and the rough usage unavoidable in forest fighting, especially by night.

3. Main Concerns

(a) Turret Segments

There were two reasons for the damage to segments. These were:-

(i) Turret or gun being struck by trees. While every care was taken by tank commanders in this respect it was impossible, when fighting, to avoid it at all times.

(ii) Mud, undergrowth and small branches packing between skid rails and lifting the track to a point where the turret is heaved from its ring. Despite mud ploughs and stripper bars this happens in certain conditions of going and the result is exactly similar to ice trouble already well known.

( Mechanical failure

Many of the tanks that failed mechanically were very old and were in any case due to be back-loaded for rework. During the period under review the tank crews had neither time nor the facilities to carry out the constant maintenance required by these old tanks. It is considered unnecessary to enumerate the various causes of failure.

© Clutches

The clay sub-soil, sometimes under water, together with the general forest conditions, put a severe strain on clutches. Attempts to get forward when bogged were perhaps the greatest single factor causing failure. While 3 was the number of total failures a great many more gave considerable trouble.

(d) Bogging

This was inevitable and it is considered that only a Churchill tank could have operated over the ground encountered in certain places during the advance. The prohibition of the axis to all tanks made difficult the recovery of tanks bogged – eventually all but two, which required workshop assistance, were recovered by units.

(e) Electrical Systems

Complete failure of the system was prevalent in tanks with damaged turrets. The connections in the junction box were broken by the wrench as the turret was lifted by packed mud.