Spotting question

[Tarquelne]

I'm trying to figure out why a bazooka team can't see a Marder while the Marder can see them.

This first picture shows the team with the Marder spotted. They Hunted to their current position and dropped to the ground when they saw the TD. This shot was taken just after they dropped to the ground.

Their next move was to crawl to the left a little. Part way through that move they lost sight of the Marder. Less than 20 seconds elapsed between the two pics.

So they lay there the rest of the turn futilely searching their arc for the missing Marder. Toward the end of the turn the Marder, OTOH, saw them.

I'm puzzled by the (apparently) one-way LOS.

There's a slight rise in the ground in front of the bazooka team. In this shot you can see how it makes the ground 85m away a reverse slope target.

And here you can see that the ground 127m away is a reverse slope target.

85 and 127m because, with the camera at ground level, the LOS tool jumps from 85m to 127m. The Marder's about 100m away.

It's possible the team is just unlucky and or unskilled - I don't know what sort of chance elements are built into the spotting system. That was my first idea, when I thought they'd merely failed to spot the TD at all. Not spotted it and then almost immediately lost it again.

My other theory is that the team can't see the Marder while prone because of the small rise. In this theory the team doesn't really have a LOS at all in the first screenshot, or the LOS is very poor and once a little time passes they lose their "Spot" on the Marder.

Yes/no?

Also: If left in place would the team have come up to a crouch eventually? Assuming they weren't whacked first. I've seen AT-rocket teams who fire in the middle of a move fire while standing. And I've seen stationary teams fire while prone. But I don't recall seeing any fire from a crouch. (Which would mean they can never fire from behind a low hedge or wall?)

For those worried about the fate of the team: They scarpered successfully.

[Michael Emrys]

But I don't recall seeing any fire from a crouch.

I have. In fact, just last night I watched a guy fire a Panzerschrech twice from a kneeling position. He was a lousy shot though and didn't hit anything.

But you say the Marder could see them? Did it fire at them? Even after they had dropped to the ground? That would be odd given that a Marder is a tolerably large vehicle, at least compared to prone men. Perhaps it was area firing at their last known location?

Michael

[Tarquelne]

But you say the Marder could see them? Did it fire at them? Even after they had dropped to the ground?

It spotted them when they were prone. (This is in a PBEM and I haven't asked, but I'm pretty sure: Toward the end of a turn the Marder turned it's gun right at them.) It did fire, but not until the bazooka team started to run. It fired quite quickly after they popped-up. I'd assumed they were already in the process of firing before the team moved. But perhaps not. The Marder took either took as long as I'd expect to fire, or was much quicker.

It's hard to say exactly what it was aiming at. It looks like it was more or less on-target, just short.

It's nice to know the AT-guys can fire from a crouch.

[dakuth]

isn't is possible that because the guys are face-first in the dirt, and the marder is open-topped and higher up, that under some scenarios men might not see a vehicle while the vehicle can see them?

It would have to be rare, I would imagine... but I *could* envision the scenario having crawled around in long grass near vehicles a few times.

[YankeeDog]

It spotted them when they were prone. (This is in a PBEM and I haven't asked, but I'm pretty sure: Toward the end of a turn the Marder turned it's gun right at them.) It did fire, but not until the bazooka team started to run. It fired quite quickly after they popped-up. I'd assumed they were already in the process of firing before the team moved. But perhaps not. The Marder took either took as long as I'd expect to fire, or was much quicker.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the Marder was able to see the team while they were prone. The individual unit AI in CMx2 can "remember" the location of recently spotted (but currently not spotted) threats.

So if the Marder first spotted your guys while they were up and hunting, but then lost sight of them when they dropped down and prone, it might still point its gun in the direction of the recently seen threat, and would be able to take the team under fire very quickly if it regained spotting.

Units will also occasionally fire at the last known location of enemy units that recently dropped out of sight, though this is a behavior I usually see with small arms and MGs; I don't recall seeing it with main gun rounds.

Not saying this is what happened, but it is one possibility. Impossible to say for sure without being able to run the turn from the Marder's side and see what it actually had spotted at any given moment.

[Tarquelne]

So if the Marder first spotted your guys while they were up and hunting,...

There was a gap of of more than 30 seconds between when the team went prone and when the Marder turned, which is why I think they spotted the prone team. But as you say, it's impossible to say without seeing things from the other side.

Hmm... And his infantry was in the area. I don't think anyone was in a good position to see the team. But of course he'd be trying to keep them from being spotted. From another thread I gather one of them might have spotted the team and relayed the info to the Marder.

Looking from the Marder's perspective the bazooka team does seem like it'd be visible. Somewhat hard to spot, but I can make out a couple of little drab shapes. And I assume the Marder has binocs or optics.

[RockinHarry]

Was the zook team green, regular, veteran?...., could make a huge difference, as well as current motivation state and leader tag. Was the team all alone in the area?

LOS from prone & hide is calculated different from crouch & standing, which is obvious.

[Erwin]

Everyone is talking as if CMBN is a perfect representation/simulation of RL and therefore there MUST be a rational explanation for phenomena like the above.

Remember it's just a "cheap" (compared to DOD simulations) entertainment game and it has many unrealistic abstractions and weirdness. Enjoy the good bits.

[Tarquelne]

Was the zook team green, regular, veteran?....,

Regular, -1 leadership. I think their morale state was OK.

Responding to dakuth above: The ground cover was a little shaggy - not long grass, but wildflowers. That, combined with the rise, seems like it could easily degrade the LOS.

Erwin:

I bet everyone's aware that it could be a bug or flaw. But at this point I think it's easy to believe there's a rational explanation for the team losing then not spotting the Marder. (And maybe it would have Spotted it if given more time.) I *do* think there's a flaw, in that the AT team would have just needed to rise to a crouch to re-acqure the then-oblivious Marder and didn't. But, again, maybe the would have if given more time. And maybe they didn't want to expose themselves any more - very rational.

Going to a crouch is the sort of pro-active action AIs generally aren't good at. Most of the time being prone works. So the flaw is just another of those hard-to-fix AI things.

At least they didn't fire off a few rifle rounds before dropping.

In the future I'll try to be more aware of slight folds in the land between AI teams and their targets. And maybe see about tossing in a move order toward the target if it seems a concern.